Comments on: 2009 25-Man Roster http://www.piratesprospects.com/2009/01/2009-25-man-roster-projection.html Your best source for news on the Pittsburgh Pirates and their minor league system. Sat, 20 Sep 2014 09:36:00 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.9.2 By: dropkickmurphys http://www.piratesprospects.com/2009/01/2009-25-man-roster-projection.html#comment-14444 Sat, 21 Apr 2012 03:01:00 +0000 http://www.piratesprospects.com/2009/01/2009-25-man-roster.html#comment-14444 I couldn’t agree more.  Relievers are highly over valued, especially closers.  Teams like the Pirates should flip their good relievers every couple of years.  

Closers are another example of how managers don’t manage baseball games smartly.  Why on earth would you save your best reliever for a situation that may never happen?  If its such a good move, why not save your best hitter for a bases loaded situation in a close game?  Neither one makes sense but managers do the former all the time.

Truth is managers manage their closer by a very poor statistic that measures them, the save.  There is no more meaningless stat in baseball than the save.  Yet, we see managers leave their best reliever out of tie games in extra innings on the road.  The closer is however, the first reliever out of the pen when the game is tied in the ninth inning of a home game.  The don’t use the close when the team is behind late.  The manager doesn’t use the 7th or 8th innings of close games when the tying or winning runs are on base or at the plate.  Yet, if the team is ahead by three runs or less, the closer will be out there to start the last inning.

If managers were evaluated solely on how they used their best reliever, they would all fail.

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By: Tim Williams http://www.piratesprospects.com/2009/01/2009-25-man-roster-projection.html#comment-14402 Thu, 19 Apr 2012 16:45:00 +0000 http://www.piratesprospects.com/2009/01/2009-25-man-roster.html#comment-14402 Really good article. Thanks for passing it along!

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By: ecbucs http://www.piratesprospects.com/2009/01/2009-25-man-roster-projection.html#comment-14401 Thu, 19 Apr 2012 16:43:00 +0000 http://www.piratesprospects.com/2009/01/2009-25-man-roster.html#comment-14401 teams that are contending want as much certainty of performance as they can get so they will pay a lot to get Mike Adams.  The Bucs need to take advantage of teams in those situations. 

This would be torture to fans, but the Bucs should play tapes of Stan Belinda trying to save playoff games anytime a contender visits PNC.

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By: Andrew Smalley http://www.piratesprospects.com/2009/01/2009-25-man-roster-projection.html#comment-14395 Thu, 19 Apr 2012 14:07:00 +0000 http://www.piratesprospects.com/2009/01/2009-25-man-roster.html#comment-14395 Two things:

1) Look at more advanced stats.
2) Look at stats PRIOR to the trade deadline.

You’ll see that we have done well with our strategy at acquiring/composing the bullpen almost from scratch from year to year.

Finally, ERA being used to judge a reliever is particularly troubling and incomplete. K/BB rate, as well as an ability to keep the ball in the park, are much more important than the ERA component.  Exhibit A:  Daniel McCutchen.  The latter is a guy that has horrible peripherals and shouldn’t be on the team (he isn’t) yet has had a decent ERA.  No one should/would confuse No Relation w/ being a good pitcher.

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By: burgh_fan http://www.piratesprospects.com/2009/01/2009-25-man-roster-projection.html#comment-14394 Thu, 19 Apr 2012 12:38:00 +0000 http://www.piratesprospects.com/2009/01/2009-25-man-roster.html#comment-14394 Just throwing this out there. What if the Pirates did start using Hanrahan in the 6th or 7th innings in tight ball games. That would be logical uses but if he doesn’t close games I could see that hurting his trade value around the league. Fair or not I think its rather apparent that closers are more highly valued than other relief pitchers so wouldn’t moving Hanrahan out of the traditional closer role hurt his value in a trade?

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By: gregenstein http://www.piratesprospects.com/2009/01/2009-25-man-roster-projection.html#comment-14393 Thu, 19 Apr 2012 12:07:00 +0000 http://www.piratesprospects.com/2009/01/2009-25-man-roster.html#comment-14393 I’m not sure I’d call the bullpen’s of the past few years successful. If you look at the bullpen’s ERA, K/9, and WHIP since Huntington took over, they’ve been near the bottom of the list in those categories. The problem (or reality) though I guess is that there’s not THAT much difference between a good/great bullpen and a below average one. You can build an average or below average bullpen on the cheap and still have pretty good results whereas paying oodles of money to closers and setup men doesn’t seem to really buy you any more wins.

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By: tsnod91 http://www.piratesprospects.com/2009/01/2009-25-man-roster-projection.html#comment-14392 Thu, 19 Apr 2012 12:01:00 +0000 http://www.piratesprospects.com/2009/01/2009-25-man-roster.html#comment-14392 This is an awesome article. I like the comparison between Jason Grilli and Mike Adams. It really puts things into perspective. The Pirates are a small-market team, and need to act like one, by not overpaying for a closer. I don’t know what Cincinnati was thinking. Ryan Madson for 1 year/$8.5M to close games? Now, he’s done for the year and will be replaced by Sean Marshall. He will do fine as a closer and he is set to make $3.1M this year. That’s $5.4M less. When the trade deadline rolls around, I would like to see Hanrahan be dealt. I just hope he can keep his value up till then. The Bucs could get some impact players in return. In 2011, we didn’t really know who the closer was going to be. Meek? Hanrahan? Someone else? Then, when Hanrahan won the job, we were like, “Ok, lets see how this guy does”. Well, he became an All-Star, and the people began to trust him. Now, the people are too comfortable with Hanrahan to see him be dealt and start up a whole new relationship with some other guy. It is somewhat comforting to see Hanrahan coming out of the bullpen in the ninth. But, I hope the Bucs trade Hanrahan and receive a Top 50 hitting prospect. That would be great. Fingers crossed.

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By: Lee Young http://www.piratesprospects.com/2009/01/2009-25-man-roster-projection.html#comment-14390 Thu, 19 Apr 2012 11:42:00 +0000 http://www.piratesprospects.com/2009/01/2009-25-man-roster.html#comment-14390 I am old school and when we first started (over)using the bullpen, I figured that, the more guys they brought in, the more chances there were that one of those guys wouldn’t have his good stuff that day. I still feel that way.

That article I linked above showed that, despite our advances, pitch counts, etc, pitchers still break down at an alarming rate.

That’s really why I disliked them pulling JMac yesterday. PITCH him! Don’t BABY him. He was just starting to hit his stride.

I was really hoping what Larry Dierker did as a manager would catch on. Hopefully, it will soon (maybe Nolan Ryan’s Rangers?).

But, before the price of closers drops, TRADE HANNY! 

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By: Lee Young http://www.piratesprospects.com/2009/01/2009-25-man-roster-projection.html#comment-14389 Thu, 19 Apr 2012 11:35:00 +0000 http://www.piratesprospects.com/2009/01/2009-25-man-roster.html#comment-14389 Tim….you and Tom Verducci must’ve stayed at the same hotel this week:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/writers/tom_verducci/04/17/closers/index.html

 

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By: Murray Passarieu http://www.piratesprospects.com/2009/01/2009-25-man-roster-projection.html#comment-14388 Thu, 19 Apr 2012 11:33:00 +0000 http://www.piratesprospects.com/2009/01/2009-25-man-roster.html#comment-14388 Great article.  I’ve always wondered about over paying for relievers, especially in the era of the specialist who only pitches one inning or even less.  Plus, there are the obvious exceptions like Rivera or Hoffman, but most closers end up with careers that look more like Eric Gagne’s and the flame out quickly.  I like Hanrahan’s attitude and presence on the mound, but from a business perspective, he absolutely has to be moved if the opportunity arises to make a good deal.

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