Comments on: Trade Values: Chris Snyder, Ryan Doumit http://www.piratesprospects.com/2011/05/trade-values-chris-snyder-ryan-doumit.html Your best source for news on the Pittsburgh Pirates and their minor league system. Wed, 11 Jun 2014 06:09:00 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.8.3 By: F Lang http://www.piratesprospects.com/2011/05/trade-values-chris-snyder-ryan-doumit.html#comment-7147 Wed, 01 Jun 2011 17:34:00 +0000 http://www.piratesprospects.com/?p=11221#comment-7147 I think the catching situation is pretty solid for next year with Sanchez, Fryar, Jaramillo, Brown possibly on the 40 and Cabrera on his way at AA in 2012. Doumit, unfortunately is made of glass and I think that his constant injury problems has worn thin. I like Doumit. He’s a very solid hitting catcher but injuries and defense make him not worth paying next year. Snyder is another guy like Correia. His value is as close to as high as it’s gonna get right now. If you get rid of both, you are leaving the catching situation to question marks and inexperience so that will weigh into any decisions of course. If Snyder or Doumit were retained I wouldn’t have a problem with either…but no way both are kept. Either guy would be a nice fit in Boston. A lot of contenders in the AL could use a catcher.

]]>
By: Anonymous http://www.piratesprospects.com/2011/05/trade-values-chris-snyder-ryan-doumit.html#comment-7088 Sat, 28 May 2011 15:06:00 +0000 http://www.piratesprospects.com/?p=11221#comment-7088 IMO, I am not trading Cedano for anybody just to make a trade, that includes
Snyder or Doumit. 
The Pirates are trying to win games this year, not give away players for nothing. They do have a couple of players they could move and not make much difference to this team, might even help them. Diaz, Wood, Paul are guys they could part with for low “A” prospects with some upside.
Maholm has to bring back a top prospect or a major league ready starting player.
I think Cedano, like a lot of players in baseball is benefiting from better coaching than he has had in the past, plus he is maturing, he already has as much talent as most top end shortstops. He can frustrate you, but so could a lot of shortstops around the major leagues these days.
He IMO, is not one of our major problems, a true 4 hitter is. 
The Pirates need a bopper in the middle of this lineup.

]]>
By: Steve Zielinski http://www.piratesprospects.com/2011/05/trade-values-chris-snyder-ryan-doumit.html#comment-7083 Sat, 28 May 2011 13:10:00 +0000 http://www.piratesprospects.com/?p=11221#comment-7083 Which teams would trade their starting shortstop and catcher (Doumit) to the Giants for anything but a blue chip player. I’m assuming the trade would not be a salary dump for the team sending the shortstop and catcher?

Markets do not bring into direct relation abstract values. They are composed of barely rational individuals who confront resource constraints, performance demands, imperfect information, etc. We who analyze a market, such as the player’s market, must not only account for the solid information we have about the players, but also must include an assessment of this softer and imprecise information. Even when assessing all of this information, we can only generate possible outcomes that are also feasible.

My claim is that the Pirates can make a trade offer to the Giants that is not so impractical for the Giants that it just won’t happen, ever. My claim is not that this trade will happen or that it is so compelling that the Giants would be insane not to take it. My claim is that the Giants FO may believe themselves compelled to make this trade because they can fill multiple holes in the lineup, which would save their season and permit them to compete for another championship.

Of course, the Giants FO can just conclude that the team will not have the tools needed to compete this season, and that it must keep Belt so that it might better compete next season. That is not a conclusion they would want to draw but it might be a conclusion they feel compelled to accept.

]]>
By: Anonymous http://www.piratesprospects.com/2011/05/trade-values-chris-snyder-ryan-doumit.html#comment-7082 Sat, 28 May 2011 05:48:00 +0000 http://www.piratesprospects.com/?p=11221#comment-7082 “ but still, the Pirates received him AND Ciriaco for a decent middle reliever and 2 terrible bench players.”
Forgot to add: Ciriaco, Snyder AND A TON OF CASH for a decent middle reliever and 2 terrible bench players.

So, really, it isn’t the Giants who would have to overpay, it would be the Pirates would have to overpay in order to dump an overpaid (for his value) Doumit.

Teams just don’t often let go of top prospects anymore.

]]>
By: Anonymous http://www.piratesprospects.com/2011/05/trade-values-chris-snyder-ryan-doumit.html#comment-7080 Sat, 28 May 2011 05:43:00 +0000 http://www.piratesprospects.com/?p=11221#comment-7080 Gotta agree with Tim completely on this one.  And I’ll add to it:

1. You can’t possibly believe that you are a “playoff contender” if you truly have “holes” at 3 of the 8 positions in the field.  

2.  Ronny Cedeno and Ryan Doumit are surely not the pieces that are going to solidify the Giants’ ability to compete.

While Doumit would prove to be a very worthy guy to have on a playoff teams’ bench (switch hitter with some power, can play multiple positions – sort of), it would be delusional to think that Doumit still has starting in his future (his time with the Pirates, not withstanding).  So, to me, and as Tim has shown, Doumit really doesn’t have a lot of value, especially to a team looking to add a starting catcher.  

Chris Snyder would be a slightly more valuable addition for a team looking for a short-term solution, but still, the Pirates received him AND Ciriaco for a decent middle reliever and 2 terrible bench players.  Certainly nobody’s going to give up a top prospect to get him.  There are enough “Chris Snyder”‘s (decent glove, some power but low average) out there in baseball that the Giants wouldn’t need to get rid of much to get someone like him.

Now Cedeno, on the other hand, has some value to a team in desperate need of a short-term solution at shortstop.  However, that value is no more than many, many other shortstops out there.  If Brandon Belt is made available by the Giants, I think most non-contending teams would offer their starting shortstop (and more) to get him.   Is Cedeno the best available shortstop in that scenario, no, but he’s solidly in the middle of the pack.  Certainly, the Giants can do better than Doumit/Cedeno. 

]]>
By: Anonymous http://www.piratesprospects.com/2011/05/trade-values-chris-snyder-ryan-doumit.html#comment-7081 Sat, 28 May 2011 05:43:00 +0000 http://www.piratesprospects.com/?p=11221#comment-7081 Gotta agree with Tim completely on this one.  And I’ll add to it:

1. You can’t possibly believe that you are a “playoff contender” if you truly have “holes” at 3 of the 8 positions in the field.  

2.  Ronny Cedeno and Ryan Doumit are surely not the pieces that are going to solidify the Giants’ ability to compete.

While Doumit would prove to be a very worthy guy to have on a playoff teams’ bench (switch hitter with some power, can play multiple positions – sort of), it would be delusional to think that Doumit still has starting in his future (his time with the Pirates, not withstanding).  So, to me, and as Tim has shown, Doumit really doesn’t have a lot of value, especially to a team looking to add a starting catcher.  

Chris Snyder would be a slightly more valuable addition for a team looking for a short-term solution, but still, the Pirates received him AND Ciriaco for a decent middle reliever and 2 terrible bench players.  Certainly nobody’s going to give up a top prospect to get him.  There are enough “Chris Snyder”‘s (decent glove, some power but low average) out there in baseball that the Giants wouldn’t need to get rid of much to get someone like him.

Now Cedeno, on the other hand, has some value to a team in desperate need of a short-term solution at shortstop.  However, that value is no more than many, many other shortstops out there.  If Brandon Belt is made available by the Giants, I think most non-contending teams would offer their starting shortstop (and more) to get him.   Is Cedeno the best available shortstop in that scenario, no, but he’s solidly in the middle of the pack.  Certainly, the Giants can do better than Doumit/Cedeno. 

]]>
By: Steve Zielinski http://www.piratesprospects.com/2011/05/trade-values-chris-snyder-ryan-doumit.html#comment-7079 Sat, 28 May 2011 03:44:00 +0000 http://www.piratesprospects.com/?p=11221#comment-7079 But the Giants lack the kind of prospects needed to get quality players at the positions they need to fill.

I’m saying the Giants may overpay for the same reason a famished man with money will overpay for a bowl of rice during a famine.

]]>
By: Tim Williams http://www.piratesprospects.com/2011/05/trade-values-chris-snyder-ryan-doumit.html#comment-7078 Sat, 28 May 2011 03:32:00 +0000 http://www.piratesprospects.com/?p=11221#comment-7078 They might have holes at those positions, but that doesn’t mean they have to limit themselves to trading with one team.  There is little benefit to trying to fill multiple needs from one team.  You severely reduce your potential return.  This is your basic three nickels for a quarter trade.  It’s just like three team trade proposals: they only benefit the team that is suggesting them.

The only way the Pirates get a big return for a Doumit/Cedeno package is if someone drastically overpays.  Even if a team is making a title run, I don’t think that happens, as Doumit and Cedeno are not pieces you add when you’re trying to make a title run.

]]>
By: Steve Zielinski http://www.piratesprospects.com/2011/05/trade-values-chris-snyder-ryan-doumit.html#comment-7077 Sat, 28 May 2011 03:15:00 +0000 http://www.piratesprospects.com/?p=11221#comment-7077 I think you under-appreciate the value provided by multiple players to a team that has multiple needs and has a need to seek a second World Series title.

Giants:

Catcher: hole
Shortstop: hole
Firstbase: hole.

San Fransisco’s offense is even more anemic than the Pirates offense. The Giants might have a winning record, but it also has a negative run differential. The Giant’s would be below .500 if they had won at a rate suggested by their RS and RA. If Belt performs, that would help some with the run production. But catcher and shortstop will remain black holes. Who would the Giants trade to get a better shortstop than Cedeno? a better offensive catcher than Doumit?

The is a rationale for a trade like this, it’s a short-term title-seeking rationale.

]]>
By: Tim Williams http://www.piratesprospects.com/2011/05/trade-values-chris-snyder-ryan-doumit.html#comment-7076 Sat, 28 May 2011 02:34:00 +0000 http://www.piratesprospects.com/?p=11221#comment-7076 There’s no way the Pirates get Belt.  He’s a top 25 prospect, which is worth $25+ M.  That’s the type of trade chip you deal for a star, not a bunch of spare parts that are under control for a year or two (which is the case with Cedeno and most of the other trade chips).  If they’re looking for a shortstop, they could do a lot better than Cedeno if they’re dealing Belt.

As for Cedeno, his play has been encouraging lately, although we’ve seen this from him before.  Last year at this time he was one of the best defensive shortstops in the game, according to UZR.  By the end of the season, he had a negative UZR rating.  I’m not buying this until I see it from him over the long term, and I’m sure the Giants aren’t buying it either.

]]>