There’s a narrative that has existed in Pittsburgh for the last few years that I used to think only existed in Pittsburgh. That narrative is that the Wild Card game is not the playoffs.

The Pirates hosted the NL Wild Card game from 2013-2015, which means they hosted it three of the first four years the one game playoff was in existence. They won it once, and lost the second two years when they had the misfortune of going up against the hottest pitchers in baseball at the time. That’s just the downside of a one game playoff. And yet, there are a lot of people in Pittsburgh who don’t even acknowledge that they made the playoffs, saying that the Wild Card game is a play-in game.

This playoff truther movement is pretty ridiculous, since MLB officially considers the Wild Card game to be part of the playoffs. The Wild Card game does not count toward regular season stats. When you buy a playoff package, you get the Wild Card game. There are so many other things I could mention that show the Wild Card game is the playoffs, and saying otherwise is just stretching to try and avoid giving credit to how good the Pirates were from 2013-15. But I’d rather focus instead on understanding why people feel this way.

I talked about this on Twitter a few weeks ago, and in the process, Doug Gray, who runs Reds Minor Leagues, said the same narrative exists in Cincinnati. The Reds made the Wild Card game once under the new format, while also winning the NL Central in 2012. They lost the NLDS in five games in 2012, and as we all know, they lost the Wild Card game in 2013. They haven’t had a winning season since.

The trend here is that fan bases that lose the Wild Card game don’t consider that the playoffs. Fans who win the Wild Card game don’t care, because they advance further in the playoffs. You can see why fans don’t think their team really made the playoffs if they made the Wild Card game. It sucks when you lose. You win 98 games, which is the second best total in baseball, but the team with the most wins is in your division, so you play a one game playoff. That one game playoff puts you against the hottest pitcher in baseball, who continues his amazing stretch and eliminates you. One night, and your playoff run is over.

The Wild Card game can be enormously frustrating, to the point where you don’t even want to acknowledge that it’s the playoffs. Teams should try to avoid it and win the division, because there’s nothing worse in the game of baseball than having your entire season boil down to one game. You want the “real” playoffs, where you get a best of five series and where every starter in your playoff rotation gets a chance to go, with your best guy going twice if needed. The thing is, the Wild Card game is also the “real” playoffs. It’s just that winning the division leads to a much better version of those same playoffs.

But there’s a problem with winning the division. The complaint in Pittsburgh has been that the Pirates just settle for the Wild Card game, and don’t try to win the division. They don’t do enough in the offseason to try and go for the division, or they don’t make the right moves at the trade deadline to make that run. We’ll ignore that they won 98 games in 2015, and losing their division was just the bad luck of having the best team in baseball in the same division. We’ll also ignore that they tried to win the division the final series in 2014, which led to Edinson Volquez as the Wild Card game starter, and not Francisco Liriano or Gerrit Cole.

But the problem with this line of thinking that they don’t do enough to compete for the division ignores their exact situation. It can best be summed up in the following way:

1ggeqw

Winning the NL Central isn’t an easy task. First of all, you now have the Chicago Cubs, a team with the capability to spend among the top ten in baseball, with a smart General Manager who combines all of the best tactics that were formerly reserved for small market teams, and combines that with the ability to add impact players through free agency. The Cubs have built up a power house through the combination of drafting and trading for young talent, and then supplementing that talent with high-priced free agents to fill their final needs.

Then there’s the Cardinals, who are guaranteed for 3.5 million in attendance each year, giving them more revenue than most teams in their market size receive. The Cardinals are also incredibly smart to the point where they have plenty of home-grown players on their roster, which combined with the added revenue from attendance, allows them to splurge from time to time on the open market to fill their needs. If the Cardinals had the budget of the Cubs, things might get extremely scary in the NL Central.

So that’s your competition. A team that is the instant favorite to win the World Series a year after they already won the World Series, and a team that is always in contention, to the point where they have won the most games in MLB since 2010 (I went back until that statement wasn’t true, and if you include 2009, the Cardinals only finish two wins shy of the Yankees, and still 16 ahead of the Dodgers). When you’re a team like the Pirates, with a smaller budget, then winning the division isn’t something simple, and winning the Wild Card isn’t settling.

But I’m not here to say the Pirates have no shot at the division. Because in the past few days, there has emerged a path for them to be a serious contender.

Wednesday morning started out with the rumor that the Pirates were trying hard for Jose Quintana. Thursday morning opened with the news that they agreed to a three-year deal with Ivan Nova. That was followed by the news that they were still going after Quintana. All offseason, the talk has been that the Pirates need rotation help, and not even the addition of one starter would have made things look optimistic, considering the division they’re in. But if you add Quintana to the mix? With a rotation that also includes Gerrit Cole, Jameson Taillon, and now Ivan Nova? Suddenly, that’s a rotation that could contend.

I wrote the other day that I think the Pirates could add Quintana. They’ve got the prospects, and if they trade the right combo of those prospects, they could add Quintana without really losing anything in the short or long-term. My suggestion was a package around Tyler Glasnow and Josh Bell. With Cole, Quintana, Taillon, and Nova all under control for at least the next three years, you don’t really have an immediate need for Glasnow. I also don’t think that he’s a guy who will have an easy transition into the majors. Could he still reach the upside of a top of the rotation starter in the long-term? I think he could. But if the Pirates keep him, I don’t see him being a guy who would provide top of the rotation production for all six years of control. I think they’d be lucky to get four years of number three starter production or better, unless they kept him in the minors a few years. He just seems like a guy who is going to take some extra time to develop, and when you have a shot to win now, and a shot at a rotation that doesn’t need him, that’s the type of guy you trade.

Then there’s Josh Bell. I don’t think we’ve come close to seeing his full offensive upside. At the same time, I don’t know how much his defense can improve going forward. I’m not as down on Bell as some who predict a 1.0 WAR upside with his defense. I think he could eventually get to a 2-3 WAR player, through a combination of improved offense and slightly improved defense. But that would require a lot of improving on both sides of the ball.

The Pirates now have David Freese under control for the next three years, and he’s been pretty consistent as a 2 WAR player the last few years. He doesn’t do it in a flashy way. He doesn’t hit for a lot of homers, and doesn’t have the highest average. He gets on base, has some power, and plays solid defense. Bell is the type of guy who could be flashy on offense, and frightening on defense. Freese gives up the flash on offense and greatly improves the defense. The end result is that Freese could give you about the same production as Bell for the next three years, albeit in a different way. And then, the Pirates have prospects waiting in the minors who could take over, with the top long-term option being Will Craig.

I think you could lose Glasnow and Bell, and not really feel the impact in the short-term or long-term. It will probably eventually hurt to see them playing so well with another team. But it would also feel really good watching Jose Quintana on the mound at PNC Park over the next four years.

So a rotation of Cole, Quintana, Taillon, Nova, and Chad Kuhl, with Steven Brault, Drew Hutchison, Trevor Williams, and many others trying to take the final spot from Kuhl, or adding depth (add Nick Kingham to that mix by mid-season). That’s a rotation that can contend, not only during the season, but during the playoffs.

But what about the rest of the team? If we’re being realistic, this is a team that is already projected for $102.6 M, and their budget is probably around $100 M. We could say it should be higher, but the facts show that a good amount of teams in baseball max out at around $100 M in payroll, and half the league doesn’t go above $115 M. I don’t think the Pirates would add Quintana without cutting salary elsewhere. That would most easily come from trading Tony Watson and Antonio Bastardo. You add Quintana and remove those two, and the payroll drops down to $96 M. That leaves just enough room to add a cheap bullpen or bench piece, and maybe two if they go a few million over $100 M.

But here’s the problem with that: I don’t think the Pirates would have enough depth in this scenario. Sure, the rotation looks great. The offense returns most of the starters from last year in this scenario. But the bullpen is weakened, and the bench depth is thin. I think an addition of Quintana would also require a trade of Andrew McCutchen, to go with the trade of one or two of the lefty relievers.

That wouldn’t be popular, but I think the Pirates could be better in the aggregate without McCutchen. As I wrote this week, the market is shaping up for some discounts on the free agent outfielders. None of them would be as good as McCutchen, which is why he’d still have value. But you could still get a good player. You could also add a good bench player or two, trying to get the next Matt Joyce, Sean Rodriguez, or David Freese. And you could boost the bullpen.

If McCutchen is traded, along with Watson and Bastardo, that gives the Pirates $18 M to spend to get to $100 M. Last year they got Freese, Joyce, Rodriguez, Neftali Feliz, and Juan Nicasio for a combined $13.4 M. You could probably get four similar players for the bench and bullpen, plus a starter for the outfield until Austin Meadows is ready, and spend around $18 M. And you’d have a much stronger overall team. This is all without a dream scenario where the Pirates add another young starter to the rotation in a McCutchen trade, or another young reliever in a Watson trade, or any other trade additions they could make.

In summary, the Pirates have a path to a team that could look like this:

C – Francisco Cervelli

1B – David Freese

2B – Josh Harrison

SS – Jordy Mercer

3B – Jung Ho Kang

LF – Gregory Polanco

CF – Starling Marte

RF – Free Agent (Eventually Austin Meadows)

Bench – Chris Stewart, Adam Frazier, Jaso, Alen Hanson, Free Agent

Rotation – Gerrit Cole, Jose Quintana, Jameson Taillon, Ivan Nova, Chad Kuhl

Bullpen – Daniel Hudson, Felipe Rivero, Juan Nicasio, Free Agent, Free Agent, Jared Hughes, Wade LeBlanc or Tyler Webb

This is getting into fantasy/Out of the Park Baseball territory, but I don’t feel this scenario is out of the question. The biggest hurdle here would be adding Quintana. The Pirates have the prospects needed to add him, and could add him without hurting the team in the short-term or the long-term. From there, it gets harder to project, since it dives into a lot of theories about who could be available and for what price.

But the key thing here is that the Pirates actually have a path to forming a team that could contend with the Cubs and Cardinals. And that’s not just for the 2017 season, but for 2018, 2019, and maybe even beyond if the remaining prospects in the system worked out as expected. It won’t be easy to accomplish.

Then again, it’s never easy in the NL Central.

**Order a Last Minute Pirates Prospects Gift Subscription. Get a gift subscription for a friend or family member, and help expand the site’s content in the process.

**Pirates Reportedly Still Trying to Acquire Jose Quintana After the Ivan Nova Deal. Analysis on the latest Quintana rumor, after the Nova signing.

**Pirates Signing Ivan Nova to a Three-Year Deal. Analysis on the Nova deal.

**Dean Treanor Joins the Miami Marlins as a Bullpen Coach. This news kind of flew under the radar, but Dean Treanor has moved on to accept a big league job with the Marlins.

**Pirates Release Nine Minor League Players. News from last night about the Pirates releasing nine minor leaguers, with one other retiring.

**Pirates Announce Daniel Hudson Deal; DFA Brady Dragmire. They’ll probably announce the Nova deal when they figure out how they can DFA Dragmire again.

**Pirates Reportedly Working Hard to Acquire LHP Jose Quintana. The original Quintana rumor, and my thoughts on what the price could be.

IMPORTANT: You will need to update your password after the switch to the new server in order to log in and comment. Go to the Password Reset Page to change your password.

219 COMMENTS

  1. You definitely would be in games with that huge upgrade in the rotation, but the lineup may not be able to score any runs in that scenario. You can’t assume you can get anywhere near the bench production from last year let alone losing the only true power option left in cutch, a possible Kang suspension, and bells potential. To compete you and really try to keep up.with the Jones you need to somehow get quintana and keep cutch, or at least find a package where Bell isn’t involved.

  2. Great article Tim
    I like the lineup you drafted stopping after Quintana. Keep Tony and Cutch, hate selling low on Cutch – his bat speed is too good and 30 is not too old. He will be back. I also don’t like overstating importance of bench. It’s still the bench. We had 25 less wins last year with a fantastic bench. Let’s have great every day guys first
    Why wouldn’t we move Kang to SS and play Freese at 3B? I know range had been issue for Kang after injury but pirates have openly discussed giving him some time there

  3. Quintana has pitched a lot of innings the last 3 years. I’m not sold on trading any 2 of the top 4 prospects for someone who could wake up one morning unable to lift his arm to brush his teeth. And we’ve just been down the road of these certain trades 2 weeks ago with with Cutch.

  4. I can’t believe with continued hard work, that Bell can’t become adequate at first base, and if his bat is as good as we think it might be, I’m not dealing him.

  5. I don’t know how reliable it is but on site I found, 12up.com, I saw a rumor that said the Bucs would send Cutch to the Yanks for OF Rutherford and 3B Andujar and then send Glasnow and some combo of possibly these 2 and other pieces it the Sox for Quintana.

    • All this talk of trading Cutch and also trading Glasnow AND Bell in a deal for Quintana is absurd, IMO. The guy is good, but what we`re proposing to give up just to get him in the rotation one would think he`s frickin` Koufax. Would love to have him, but not at the expense of tearing the entire team up.

  6. Off topic, but….even the low budget Oakland A’s scout, pursue, and sign Cuban players – unlike the Pirates, who seemingly totally ignore this source of many great baseball talents….

    Athletics Sign Cuban Right-Hander Norge Ruiz

    The Athletics announced on Friday that they’ve signed international free agent Norge Ruiz to a minor league contract. MLB.com’s Jesse Sanchez reports (on Twitter) that Ruiz will receive a $2MM signing bonus. The 22-year-old Cuban right-hander has long been considered one of the more appealing arms in Cuba. Ruiz is subject to international spending limitations due to his age, so he’ll count against Oakland’s bonus pool.

    Ruiz’s numbers in three professional seasons in the Cuban National Series are impressive, as he worked to a collective 2.55 ERA in 374 1/3 innings. He averaged just six strikeouts against 3.1 walks per nine innings pitched in that time, though scouting reports on Ruiz indicate that he has the potential to make a significant impact on Oakland’s farm system.

    Sanchez ranks Ruiz as the No. 3 prospect on this winter’s international market, and while he didn’t make Baseball America’s list of top international prospects this summer, that was due to the fact that he’d yet to technically be cleared as a free agent. (Ruiz was declared a free agent by MLB back in early September.) Per Sanchez’s above-linked report, Ruiz has a fastball that reaches 94 mph and has plenty of movement on it, and he’s also worked with a slider, changeup, cutter and splitter that are deployed from various arm angles.

    – By Steve Adams | December 23, 2016 at 11:42am CDT – mlbtraderumors.com

    • It is a little puzzling to me why the Pirates at least don’t dip into the Cuban market. I thought Rene Gayo could walk on water years ago. Now, I don’t know.

      This is an organization that once relied on swooping in and paying top dollar for prospects. International signing’s poster child has to be Luis Heredia. On the domestic side, Josh Bell is obviously the poster boy. He can hit, but even with the $5M that bought into the org, he has no where to play. BTW, he deserves lot of credit for trying to learn how to play 1B, something Pedro did not care to improve on.

    • He was actually quite good down the stretch but he had a real rough mid season were he coughed up a lot of inherited runs. He has been very good for a long time and odds are he will be good in 2017. Cut him and 10 teams will be calling his agent.

  7. “If McCutchen is traded, along with Watson and Bastardo, that gives the Pirates $18 M to spend to get to $100 M” well that’s great, can they replace the production for what they lose from having no closer and having cutch gone? and remember, we aren’t talking about replacing 2016 production because that leaves us screwed anyways……we need to replace 2015’s production for both of them with 18 million dollars, and I don’t think that’s a reasonable goal, especially not at the WAR value per million in the current marketplace. You are looking at replacing at least 5 WAR with 18 million……good luck.

  8. “We’ll ignore that they won 98 games in 2015, and losing their division was just the bad luck of having the best team in baseball in the same division. We’ll also ignore that they tried to win the division the final series in 2014, which led to Edinson Volquez as the Wild Card game starter, and not Francisco Liriano or Gerrit Cole.” – Tim I think you are misunderstanding what fans mean and the overall point. I don’t think ANYONE thinks that the “team” isn’t trying to win the division, we are talking about the front office making the moves necessary to give us a good CHANCE of winning the division. We didn’t win 98 games due to our actual talent, and we didn’t come close to winning the division the year before by making aggressive moves either.

  9. This cracked me up Tim:

    “if McCutchen is traded, along with Watson and Bastardo, that gives the Pirates $18 M to spend to get to $100 M. Last year they got Freese, Joyce, Rodriguez, Neftali Feliz, and Juan Nicasio for a combined $13.4 M. You could probably get four similar players for the bench and bullpen, plus a starter for the outfield until Austin Meadows is ready, ”

    If we are going to use 2016 as a reference we should use projections on these players instead of actual results. IN aggregate it was probably projected for 2.5 WAR with the bulk of that coming from Freese(1.4 WAR projections) and Nicasio(.7 projection). Freese was a rather unique case in 2016. But I doubt 18M buys the Pirates 2.5 WAR in 2017, let alone the actual production those guys had in 2016.

    • Agreed. There is a perception and a new excitement in this town across all media that the two FA signings signal that the organization wants to contend this year AND that some other moves that could help are in the works.

      • I really don’t think any long term fans have changed their thoughts at this point. Forcing a $100m payroll on any team is a disadvantage which is almost impossible to overcome….

        • I assure you without rattling off the dates and teams I am a long term fan. There is excitement over the two signings and the rumors.
          If you read my other posts I despise the concept of a self imposed $100M payroll that mandates trades that detract from the team.
          This owner has made a killing on the purchase of this team…his net worth has gone up $800M.

  10. I live in Chicago. There are rumblings from local Sox people that there is a 3-team thing brewing between the Bucs, Sox, and Yankees. Cutch would be going to NY. No idea if there is any truth to this stuff though.

  11. Who knows what will end up, but I hope that if they are going all in to contend this year they keep Cutch. It is a huge risk, but IF he bounces back and they’ve improved their rotation then they can really compete.

    My hope is that they can deal watson and harrison, getting something the Sox might like, build from Glasnow, hopefully keep Bell in the fold and make a nice package.

  12. Freese stunk the last half of the season, so I think counting on him as a starter is a mistake. There is also the chance that Glasnow becomes a better starter than Quintana quickly, making the deal look stupid. Glasnow has yet to get hit in his pro career, and a gradual improvement in command for this young man could make him a top flight starter soon. And Bell is young power hitter with awesome strike zone awareness. Giving up both those guys is too much for me.

      • I don’t either, but he still has the stuff to make this a possibility. I am just a big fan of “stuff”, as a young pitcher can always improve command and his knowledge of the game, but his God given talent is not going to get better.

  13. I think trading Cutch for the “financial flexibility” to sign bench players and middle relievers would be the absolute epitome of cutting off your nose in spite of your face.

    These are the *exact* type of role players smart teams *don’t* spend eighteen million dollars acquiring. The bullpen could be filled with AJ Schugel, Trevor Williams, Steven Brault, Drew Hutchison, Dovydas Neverauskus, or Edgar Santana. The bench could be filled with a free agent outfielder for little money, or a minor trade.

    They can build a true Division contender, but they’ll only be able to do that by taking two steps forward without taking one back. Trade Cutch next winter if you don’t want to let him walk for nothing, but for the love of all that’s holy in baseball, have the guts to take one last shot at winning with him. He deserves that, and so do the fans.

    • It’s not bench players and middle relievers.

      You’d get a young starter back for McCutchen. You’d use the savings to sign one of the available outfielders, plus a bench player and a reliever. It’s four players total, and the bench/bullpen pieces are the two with the smallest impact.

      • Young starter? Where? Which current starter is being improved upon?

        I mean, you at least disqualified your plan by saying it’s essentially fantasy baseball. So there’s that.

        • Once you get past Quintana, there would be a lot of moving parts. Narrowing it down to “this is the exact route they should take” is really limiting, since there are a lot of routes they could take in that scenario. That’s the OOTP disclaimer.

          As for the young starter, I mentioned it below. Kuhl would be the guy improved upon.

      • Can we just say how stupid it is for a MLB team to try to win consistently with a $100m payroll? MLB owes more to its fans to allow this nonsense to continue.

        • Agree. The fact that half the league maxes out at $115 M on Opening Day, while a few teams go up close to $200 M and beyond, is crazy. And yet it’s the fault of the small market owners for not spending more.

          • I think Nutting owes us an explanation on his management philosophy from the financial angle, We have heard NH talk about his payroll limitations, but we don’t know what is behind this limitation. Does Nutting budget profit at break even, or does he need to make $20m a year? The Pirates don’t survive without us fans and the people of Pittsburgh providing support and the stadium. Nutting doesn’t have to show us his financials, just let us understand the method and madness behind that payroll figure.

          • Not sure I see the point in using Opening Day payroll.

            In terms of actual, league-verified final payroll, the only two non-rebuilding teams to spend less than the Pirates are Tampa and Oakland.

            • Opening Day payroll shows what teams plan to spend in relation to their budget. Final payroll is more reflective of how the plans actually went.

              Either way, the Pirates are historically in that bottom tier with Tampa, Oakland, and 1-2 other teams. But the Pirates have reached a normal range the last two years, and should stay in that range.

  14. I agree with this plan of attack “if” they are locked into a budget – which is a very reasonable and logical conclusion. But from my perspective, this could very well be that moment where they have an opportunity to win – even more so than 2015 season when Burnett retired, Walker and Alvarez were becoming too expensive, and we were losing a bunch of free agents.

    It’s not my money but if they are consistently making 8-figure profits (which is their right), they certainly could suck it up this year and go $10 million over budget. Note they woulddn’t lose money just not gain any. They could even have their revenues increase by increased fan attendance and “playoff” money

    • The thing is, this isn’t a team that would be aiming to win only in 2017. It’s a team that could win in 2018, 2019, and 2020. So the idea of going big for one year ignores that this isn’t a one year plan.

        • Rich’s point is based on numbers that aren’t proven. So it’s hard to actually refute that. And it’s hard for him to prove his point.

          What I do know is that if they spent $110 M “just this one year”, then next year the call would be “Spend $120 M just this once.” Then $130. Then $140.

            • I’m not saying my numbers are proven. But I have provided research showing that half the teams in the league max out at $115 M.

              I’ve also provided evidence that the Pirates are operating with a budget of $100 M, and that they’ve added $8-10 M in-season when they’ve been contenders.

              That’s what we know about what the payroll is going to be, realistically. I don’t see the value in saying “they should be spending X”, because we get into the territory where no one really knows if they can spend X.

          • nonsense…….They have a window of control and cost on bounceback candidate McCutchen, and we don’t know what their operating income or net profits are. I contend that this team can keep McCutchen, move one of the excess lefties, deal for Quintana, AND make a profit in 2017. A contender contributes to increased revenue in all areas.
            That last paragraph comes off like a rant…not a response.

          • Which they could do if they a) won – thereby filling more seats, and b) upped ticket prices – they’re currently 3rd or 4th cheapest, they have plenty of room before they enter middle tier of mlb tix pricing. They can continue dynamic pricing and cash in on weekends/Cubs/Cards/interleague.

          • Tim … Agreed from the fans’ perspective but Watson, Jaso, Nicasio, and Bastardo would be gone in 2018 (~$18 mil), and they could trade Cutch ($13 mil). That pushes down to $79 mil before Arb and contracts escalations. With the starters set (rotation, Meadows, Freese, Newman/Mercer), they should have enough to replenish any holes on the bench and pen and lower payroll down to $100 again.

    • You mean run the team like the Nationals, who put winning ahead of short term profits? Teams who care about short term profits to the degree that the Pirates do either have money issues, or simply have no vision.

      • Yeah, the Nationals have won the WS a couple of times now in the past 3-4 seasons. Those big predictions with little payoff must get tiresome.

        • The ownership though has given the GM basically free rein to try to win…unlike our situation where Nutting gives NH a $100m budget

  15. How much do we believe in Nick Kingham? Because if we believe he can be a solid #3/4 going forward, and we’ve still got Cole/Taillon/Nova/Kuhl for another 2 years, then are there other options besides Quintana out there – even if it’s a one-year guy to bridge to Kingham and the possibility that Glasnow learns how to pitch?

    I’ve mentioned Danny Duffy here a couple of times. I really think Bucs should explore that option as it’ll cost far less that 2-3 top 5 prospects and give Bucs rotation the arm that would satisfy fans who’ve been complaining Nutting won’t go all in. With a Cole/Taillon/Duffy/Nova/Kuhl rotation, adding Kingham in June/July, that rotation could surpass the Cards and challenge the Cubs.

    And if for some reason they’re still falling short come the trade deadline due to offensive underperforance, they can flip Duffy to a contender and get back at least what they got for Melancon. Meantime, they keep Cutch, probably Watson and Bell, and Meadows and Keller. They might lose Glasnow or Hanson or Tucker or Hayes or similar to get Duffy, but I think it’s worth the risk to make a run.

  16. I suggest this as an alternative to trading cutch as a fait accompli to being able to acquire quintana. Why not trade Harrison (7.5 MM salary) and Watson (~6MM arb estimate) to LA who has a major need at second and could slot Watson in front of Jansen. The money between Harrison and Watson is very close to Cutch’s salary. Theres Hansen and Frazier to have an open competition for second in spring training to earn the job. And it seems highly likely Watson is getting traded at some point anyway with the Hudson signing and currently having five lefties in the pen.

    • Why would the Dodgers want Harrison? The Dodgers need a middle of the line up bat who hits RH and fills a position of need. They are going after Dozier who hit 40+ HRs last year. He would hit between Gonzalez and Seager. Harrison is not hitting in the middle of a line up.

  17. IDK, I don’t see why you would have to move McCutchen. I’m one of the fans who thinks he will rebound to close to his best offensive years, I’d rather have those years plus the guys we would have given up instead of Quintana. Keep McCutchen, keep Bell, keep Watson, keep Glasnow. IMO the lineup Tim presents and this lineup are at least a push:

    C – Francisco Cervelli

    1B – Josh Bell

    2B – Josh Harrison

    SS – Jordy Mercer

    3B – Jung Ho Kang

    LF – Gregory Polanco

    CF – Starling Marte

    RF – Andrew McCutchen

    Bench – Chris Stewart, Adam Frazier, Jaso, Alen Hanson, David Freese, (Austin Meadows later)

    Rotation – Gerrit Cole, Jameson Taillon, Ivan Nova, Chad Kuhl, (any one of Glasnow, Hutchinson, Brault, maybe Kingham later)

    Bullpen – Daniel Hudson, Felipe Rivero, Juan Nicasio, Tony Watson, Free Agent, Jared Hughes, Wade LeBlanc or Tyler Webb

    • A self quote : “Roll the dice” with McCutchen, and if he plays like he did through a good part of the 2015 and ’16 seasons, or is injured then what is he worth ? I can tell you : Zero.”

        • I think Cutch will be good next year. They need to put him back in the 3rd spot and leave him there, and stop dicking around with dreamy line-up theories. Protect him with Polanco in the clean-up spot. Put J-hay back in the lead-off spot. Forget about Jaso leading off & Cutch hitting 2nd – that was ridiculous.

  18. This team, if they trade Bell and Glasnow in the process, are not a Quintana away from winning the division. The infield defense is still sub par, the catchers can’t throw anyone out, Freese/Jaso is not a winning first base platoon, and the bullpen is a huge uncertainty.

      • None of their infielders have plus range or are plus defenders….at best, they are average. Kang and Jaso are below average…and Jaso may not be any better than Bell defensively, while he’s a huge down grade offensively. Mercer and Harrison are average defensively. Assuming they dump Watson as you suggest, suddenly the bullpen has potential but lacks certainty. In my opinion, Cole is a big question mark..will he be the 2015 version? Quintano doesn’t make this team better or even equal to the Cubs. Their best hope is trust their prospects, like the Cubs do, and hope they perform as projected.

  19. I don’t understand the seemingly extreme willingness to part with Bell, a guy the Pirates paid $5 million dollars to before ever playing a game as a professional, and a prospect who was untouchable in trade talks as recently as 5 months ago. Looking at the potential infield lineup listed above makes me cringe:

    C – Cervelli is still injury prone and is a light-hitting catcher

    1B – Having to rely on a platoon of Freese (who really struggled in the second half) and Jaso should not be viewed as ideal

    2B – Harrison should be a super-utility player again, not viewed as a “value-priced” starter

    3B – Will Kang ever be the same player he was as a rookie/stay healthy?

    SS – Mercer seems to regress offensively a little bit each year

    Bell has legit .300/30/100 potential as a guy who walks more than he strikes out and, defensive value not withstanding, has the great Pirate desire of “positional flexibility” to play first base and RF. The Pirates’ and some fans’ obsession with giving away power recently and being okay with it – some justified like Alvarez, some questionable like Walker and McCutchen, some puzzling like Bell – is just mind boggling. The Pirates can have a great OBP all they want, but if they don’t have guys who can hit with RISP or put balls over the wall for some instant offense, it won’t matter.

      • The average and health is what scare me…a .290 average with 20-25 HR potential over 162 games is significantly different from a .260 average with 15-20 HR potential over 120 games due to injuries and other factors…I still think he’ll be a good player, but still a bit skeptical that things will be completely fine

  20. Tim, in these payroll numbers are you saying they can’t stay at $106 mil, as them keeping the standard $8-10 for in sesson moves? If they can make a move of this magnitude should they even worry about in season moves? I guess my thought is they won’t get a guy better mid season so just spend the money now and hope you have all the pieces you need and won’t have to make mid season moves.

    This is just based on numbers above. I think moving Cutch for pieces that could help now & later would be a smart idea, or moving guys like Bastardo/Watson. Just basing my question based on this money in a vacuum and nothing changing in this scenario.

    • They’ve typically added $8-10 M in-season when they’ve been contending. Last year was the first time they started over $100 M, and they weren’t contending, so we didn’t get a chance to see if they’d continue that trend.

      If you spend $106 M, it makes it less likely that you’re going to be able to add a guy mid-season.

      • I get that, but if they can get Quintana now I feel that they should do that. Hope you have internal pieces for in season moves. They haven’t gotten a guy like Quintana in the offseason either.

  21. Great stuff Tim, couple questions:

    Regarding the payroll, budgetarily, shouldn’t the Bucs expect a natural revenue increase for 2017? I would expect the Revenue Sharing & Root Sports contract to naturally increase, although not by a huge %, maybe 2-3%, but still millions of dollars. When you’re using the ~$100 M benchmark for the MLB team, & not projecting an increase in payroll expenditure, is this because you’re expecting the additional revenues being used on the 17′ Draft & International signings due to the higher picks & additional International pool in 2017?

    I’ve always enjoyed your writing skills, and IMO it seems like you’re even getting better & more efficient, do you you have any plans to write any nonbaseball related books/scripts?

    • I don’t think the Root deal increases. I believe that’s a flat rate. I’m not sure about the other MLB deals. I’d imagine they see small increases, and we’ve seen small increases for the Pirates. So maybe they’ll be able to spend $101-103 M instead of $100 M. But it’s not going to be a significant amount.

      They are also going to be spending a lot more on the draft and international side this year. Their budget for both last year was about $7.5 M (since they didn’t sign Lodolo). They will have up to $5.25 M on the international side this year, and a few extra picks, plus the #12 pick, which will make their draft budget higher.

      I’m not sure if they will spend all of the international budget, but they should be up over $10 M for the draft/international spending combined at the least, and the budget could be in the $13-15 M range.

      Thanks for the writing comment! I’ve got a pretty exciting side project that will be starting in January. I’ll tell more about it later.

      • I checked with someone who’s reviewed the Root contract, & you’re correct that it will remain the same as last year, & will stay the same until expiration. There was a big one time step up in 14′ or 15′. I would’ve expected a gradual step up each year for cost of living, inflation, etc. as well as an incentive clause for viewership.

        Side topic, but when millions of dollars are involved, I don’t understand why tv ratings are sampled & projected rather than fully quantified – it’s all electronic.

        Looking forward to hearing about the side project – I’m guessing that it’s either a new comic book with a journalist as the hero or a beer review website 😉

  22. If they dealt for Jose that would put their payroll at just under 110 million if they kept all that they currently have. Which should be not a problem, however it limits being able to add bench pieces also limits mid season acquisitions. If they move Watson that saves roughly 6m if they move Bastardo we aren’t sure how much but let’s say 4m. Either one of those deals or both puts them closer to that 100m payroll target both gets them their. But if management is indeed going for it then going 10% over budget isn’t something to fret over and might finally quiet the Nutting is Cheap town cryers

  23. Seems interest (from other teams) has cooled on McCutchen. I can’t see the Mets giving up Matz or Conforto in a deal for Cutch. The only potential trade partner left might be the Dodgers.

  24. Tim if you are saying that Glasnow is probably unlikely to provide 4 years of #3 starter or better for the Pirates that sounds like you have changed your opinion quite a bit since last year.

    Not talking about his ceiling but his risk which you defined as recently as last year as “low-strong chance of reaching ceiling”

    • What did Glasnow do to improve his outlook this past year? Everybody who got on base ran on him and he still doesn’t have a changeup.

      • Nothing. That is basically my point. Most BA analysts had him rated as the 13th to 17th best prospect in MLB going into last year and I have to assume he drops from that level. I also think some people may be overestimating his trade value and not incorporating this probable drop in ranking into his trade value.

        • The thing is, if he didn’t have question marks, we wouldn’t be having a discussion about trading him for Quintana. There would be no need for that, because they’d have Glasnow and they’d know he would be producing for them.

          It’s just a basic prospect for established player trade. The team taking the prospect wants the upside, and knows the risk that the upside isn’t guaranteed. That’s also why it would take more than just Glasnow to get a deal done.

    • We were higher on him last year. It was looking like he was making some progress with his walk rate and control. There was also the hope that he could work on the changeup and improve that pitch, although there wasn’t as much urgency if the control improved.

      Fast forward to now. The control went back to poor results in Triple-A. He refused to work on the changeup. He had command issues with his curveball. I wrote all year that he wasn’t progressing and that he was becoming more of a concern. So it shouldn’t be a surprise now that we’ve got him downgraded.

      That said, if he can produce four years of Quintana results in his six years of control, that’s a great result for a pitcher. I just don’t think two of those four years will happen in 2017 or 2018, since he still has some adjusting to do.

      • I agree with you. I’ve been rather skeptical on Glasnow for awhile now. I just think he has a much lower chance of reaching his ceiling than conventional wisdom seems to believe.

  25. I just do not understand the thinking when people talk about trading bell. Is his defense bad, well yes. But his bat will be the best first base bat the Pirates have seen since Stargell and he will be in the uniform for 6 years. There isn’t anyone in the minors that can fill his spot in the lineup and Freese is not the answer. How will this team win games if they can’t drive in any runs?
    Help me understand losing an everyday bat for 6 years for a pitcher who throws every 5 days for 4 years…plus the other huge pieces we’d give up.

    • First, he’d be an everyday bat for 7 innings until taking him out for a defensive sub to close out games. Second, its much easier to win games by run prevention than run production, hence getting a very good pitcher and focusing on d is generally a better winning formula than trying to out-score everybody.

  26. I would guess something like Bell, Glasnow, and you bring in a third team to trade Cutch to, and send Cutch’s return to the Sox for Quintana. Overpay, but then you have to overpay here. I would prefer not to trade Bell in that scenario, though.

  27. If Nutting has to go $5 or $10 million over his precious budget for a couple of years, so be it!

    Keep Cutch. Trade Bastardo (and Watson, if we get a good return).

    We have a bench of:
    C- Stewart/Diaz
    IF/OF – Hanson/Frazier
    1b/OF – Jaso
    3b/1b – Freese

    And don’t forget about Rogers or Ngoepe.

    I think we’ll be fine on the bench.

    As for the bullpen, it is time to see what some of these minor league SPs can do in the pen.

      • Which part? Not trading Cutch? Using minor league players in the pen? I’m all for keeping Cutch at least up until the trade deadline. This organization was burned last year banking on pitching prospects to be ready. Would hate to see history repeat itself. Meadows could suffer an injury or maybe he will need more reps in AAA.

    • There’s certainly a lot of uncertainty about the Pirates these days, but one of them shouldn’t be Nutting’s business philosophy. No way do I believe for a second Nutting will put the cart before the horse and spend above payroll budget in hopes to win more games.

      • Nor do I think the minority owners would permit it Scott. Something most of these other people never seem to think about.

  28. Quintana and Abreau for glasnow, bell, meadows? Trade cutch in another trade for CF prospect (would’ve been great the get Robles)- one can dream

    • Abreu is expensive, bad defensively and starting to age. Might as well just keep the younger, cheaper version in josh bell.

  29. You had me walking side by side with you Tim, and then you tried to sell me on the Pirates being better without Cutch.

    If the Pirates want to compete with Cubs and Cards for division title in 2017, they will need their best players playing at the top of their game. And the player on the Pirates with the most talent is clearly Andrew McCutchen!

    They can absolutely trade for Quintana and keep Cutch, too. And if they can get the White Sox to make a deal for Glasnow + Bell + lesser prospect(s), than they should absolutely do it!

    • You got it…..The Pirates do not compete with Cubs for division title without a McCutchen playing closer to his 2013-2015 form, and trading him to provide monies to improve the bench is well not smart…

        • Tim, the primary reasons the Cubs enjoyed success last year was not their bench and bullpen. They rode a great rotation and their best hitters (Bryant/Rizzo) to the title. Pirates can try to duplicate that formula by trading for Quintana, keeping Cutch, and trading away Watson + Bastardo to clear necessary payroll.

          • Don’t discount the impact of health. The Cubs had five starters last year who made 29+ starts. Four of those guys pitched 188+ innings.

            They got over 650 PAs from Bryant and Rizzo, getting closer to 700. They got close to 600 from Heyward, Russell, and 550 from Fowler. They got 631 from Zobrist. 75% of their lineup received 550 plate appearances or more, and if you remove Fowler, you’ve got 5/8 with close to 600 or more.

            The Cubs didn’t need the bench and bullpen as much because the rotation and lineup stayed healthy. But that’s not a strategy you can bank on.

    • Let’s say they get a young starter in return for Cutch, who I think could be a 4-5 WAR player in RF. The dream scenario would be Matz from New York. But let’s just simplify it and say that it’s a 3 WAR pitcher. And let’s say that Chad Kuhl, at best, is a 2 WAR pitcher. So you’ve got 1 WAR back.

      Then you sign one of the outfielders who are available to add 2 WAR, hoping for 3 WAR. We’ll go with the 2 figure to stay conservative. This brings us to 3 WAR.

      You use the rest of the savings to add a bench and bullpen piece, which could add 1 WAR at each spot over the current options. So we’re back to the 4-5 WAR that Cutch could provide. Except it’s a more affordable roster, and there’s a lot more depth all around, which adds further value when injuries inevitably take place.

  30. Great stuff as always, Tim. I think I agree with just about everything, but perhaps a single trade of Cutch for Matz and Conforno simplifies the moving parts. I do think Quintana would be a bigger splash though. What I really like about your scenario is that it gets the pirates back to what made them really good before last year: pitching and defense. The cheaper way to build similar value is by getting guys who are solid all around players without much flash in any single area instead of sluggers who don’t play defense. The pitching and defense method also has the added advantage of creating a whole that is greater than the sum of its parts. That is how this team can compete with Chicago and St Louis.

  31. How is that lineup better than the White Sox of last year who had a pitching staff with Sale, Quintana, Robertson and some other useful pieces? Without Cutch and Bell, and with a unproven bullpen I then it’s not a playoff team. So the reality is that they can’t compete because they are too cheap to expand the budget too $120 or 130m and really go for it. With an expanded budget they trade Glasnow, Craig and another lower minors higher end prospect. Then have lineup with Cutch and Bell and a bench with Freese and Jaso, a bullpen with Watson or Bastardo and a more established righty, and a rotation that is solid. That is how you “go for it”. Not by having a bottom 5 budget and shuffling pieces.

  32. I can’t help but realize the Chi-Sox FO sees the lack of defense w/Bell and the uncertainty of Glasnow as a #1. And I do not see Bell’s value as a DH in return for a staff ace, like we’re talking about here.

    So, the only players I see ’near can’t miss potential’ are Meadows, Newman and Keller.

    I would not trade any of them.

  33. Andrew McCutchen had a very good last two months of 2016, did he not? That is the player I expect in 2017.

    Then, were Austin Meadows ready for a June call-up, he begins to settle in as a fourth outfielder. Should he appear ready for a full time OF spot, the FO could take offers for McCutchen up to the trading deadline.

    Were this to play out, and this is a logical scenario, then the Bucs are in a much stronger position for 1) playing 2017 with a tremendous OF, and 2) strengthening the value of Andrew for a potential trade next off-season

    • Playing the devil’s advocate but there are so many fans who insist that McCutchen bounced back in the last months of the season. Just asking, but if he had started with a solid 2 months and then slumped for 2/3 of the season would people be so adamant about forecasting a 4-5 WAR?

    • To quote myself in an earlier reply : “Roll the dice” with McCutchen, and if he plays like he did through a good part of the 2015 and ’16 seasons, or is injured, then what is he worth ? I can tell you : Zero.”

  34. Great analysis Tim, you convinced me that we can part with Bell in a trade for Quintana and I think we need to hold onto Keller and Meadows to fill holes down the stretch. Gladnow is a given to make this trade possible. It certainly would be a Pirates offseason for the ages!

  35. That is a great break down, I would add that they should not trade Cutch now. I would bet on him bouncing back. Might not be .300/25/90 but .280/25/80 is very realistic

  36. You absolutely have to make this trade!! I completely agree Tim!! We are right here at the door and we have goods to get a proven 200 innings pitcher!! He is in his prime now where he would be our Number 1 RIGHT NOW!! A package of Glassnow, Bell and I would give them Clay Holmes!! That is MORE THAN FAIR VALUE!! Trade Bastardo and keep Tony. Warm that bullpen spot up for Edgar Santana. We have more than enough bullpen help!! I believe McCutchen will see his value moving from CF and see we would have a REAL SHOT AT THE WS!! Bring Meadows up in June/July and trust me, there will be a team out there that will give us the moon at the trade deadline for McCutchen!! Especially if he has bounced back!! Then it would be a decision to trade Cutch if we were doing well or not!!

    • You’re suggesting they make the deal to acquire Quintana to compete for division and/or WS title, but then trade Cutch at deadline if he’s doing well? Something doesn’t add up.

      The decision to trade Cutch in this scenario would occur next off-season.

  37. Why can’t they expand the payroll a season or 2……
    Don’t worry about Nutting maybe breaking even a few years….

    • Spoken like a man who has never owned/operated a business.

      How about your neighbors suggesting you go spend 5k for a couple years on Christmas lights so they can enjoy looking at your house as they drive by this time of year. You ok with that, too?

  38. Why do all your scenarios reflect a trade of Andrew McCutchen? The guy can flat out play. The goal is to win a World Series not to replenish the farm system with every trade made. What is wrong with having a $110 to $115 payroll? Granted you could trade a reliever but why would you jettison Cutch for payroll relief or a few prospects? Adding Nova helps and adding Jose Q assures that we can compete with the Cubs but keep Andrew McCutchen!

  39. When talking about the play off package, the play in game was one of the tickets the pirates made you buy. It was only the one year, but I have a play in game ticket amung my tickets

  40. Pretty good, but I’d have to see the math to explain why you think they could be better without McCutchen. You could reasonably expect a 4-win player this year, and those aren’t easy to come by. The same teams that might trade for him can get those same discounts on those OF free agents.

    Once you get to 102.6M in the above scenario, all that’s really missing is a bench OF and maybe another righty for the pen (although I don’t think having 5 lefties is a problem since 3 of them can get righties out reliabily too. You’ve got guys like Williams, Brault, Kingham, Sadler, Duncan who could fill a spot in the pen. If you deal Watson or Bastardo to get back under $100M (assuming that a team that’s going for it won’t go to $105), you just have to find a 4th OF.

  41. If they get Quintana, I’d keep Cutch for now, trade Watson and Bastardo, round out the bench and bullpen via free agents. the argument against this is the higher payroll and the fact that Meadows is waiting in AAA. However, Meadows like our young pitching prospects from last year, is no guarantee. The Pirates have shown a willingness to add payroll at the trade deadline. Why not do the sort of the opposite this season? Start the season with a a payroll that is a bit higher. If the team is not contending or if Meadows is ready, trade Cutch at the deadline. Keeping Cutch would send a message to the average fan outside of this website, that the bucs are trying to win…. may sell more season tickets.

    • If Cutch has any value at the deadline and Quintana is on the roster there’s slim chance they’re not contending.

    • Matz and Conforto sounds a little much 1 of those guys straight and some sort of prospect would be huge progress

  42. We’ve seen Bell hit the ball with power to both fields. Would much prefer a Glasnow, Meadows package, or pray there is a third team involved like the Mets. The first thing I thought about when I saw the “trying hard” verbiage from Olney; was maybe the pirates are trying to bring in a third team. Can’t help but wonder If it’s someone like Toronto.

    Tim: What if we tossed Glasnow to ChiSox and Mccutchen to Toronto, receive Quintana, and just send the prospect value from Toronto for mccutchen to the ChiSox along with Glasnow. Of course, the ChiSox would need to want the prospects from Toronto, which is a difficult and seemingly long process to work out. But couldn’t that potential framework be interesting?

  43. I would like a trade built around Glasnow and Meadows while keeping McCutchen.

    I don’t think McCutchen is toast. If he came back for a few good years (very possible) we wouldn’t miss Austin and would look genius. Plus – that emotional part that loves McCutchen would be satisfying. Besides, Bell in RF is a good backup plan anyways.

    RE: the bullpen. I thought the notion a year or so ago was that the Pirates can be trusted to build a cheap bullpen. Are we so far past that era that we need to spend to fill out the bullpen now?

    • Trading Meadows and keeping McCutchen? That’s a good way to create a window.

      Bell isn’t a good plan in RF. Maybe short-term in 2017 until Meadows arrives. But his defense would be a concern, and that concern would grow as he got older and continued to fill out.

      • I think it is more of a slightly bigger bet than we maybe should make than a window. The bet is that McCutchen + Bell + Quintana is significantly better for the next 2-3 years than other lineups we might end up with by not trading. I think that is a good bet – but not an all-in bet that limits us to a window.

        Plus a fun bet! A team with Bell, McCutchen and Quintana would have a lot of excitement and talent.

  44. I think something like Glasnow, Bell, Hayes/Tucker + lower level pitcher definitely would get it done. Eventhough Glasnow is close to the majors he’s about as unpredictable as it gets, Bell is a potential DH, and Hayes/Tucker both are a ways away with checkered injury histories. I’m okay with any of them going.

    I wouldn’t want to trade Keller because I don’t think his value is anywhere near what it could be at the end of this season and he shows a decent amount of polish(compared to Glasnow). I wouldn’t want to trade Newman, because of Jordy’s waning years of control and I think Newman is an ideal player for a smaller market team(price will generally stay low due to the lack of HRs and only an adequate defender but he has an excellent hit tool).

    I believe if you acquire Quintana, you have to keep McCutchen. McCutchen is worth more to us as a potential 5+ WAR player than the return we would likely get. Why not roll the dice for one year and see how he does? Sure his value could decrease, but if he rebounds he will be plenty valuable next offseason.

    Lastly, I would think the ideal situation would be trading for Quintana and Abreu which would likely mean Meadows would be in the deal. Have them take back Jaso and his salary and I think they could work out the finances.

    • I’ve had the Q/Abreu dream trade in my head for a while, glad to see someone is thinking along those same line.

      • You do realize Abreu is making 10 million this season with a few more arb raises the next couple years, then he’d be gone. Also, he pretty much as bad defensively as Josh Bell and would require adding significant prospects to acquire. Home runs are his only appeal.

    • “Roll the dice” with McCutchen, and if he plays like he did through a good part of the 2015 and ’16 seasons, or is injured, then what is he worth ? I can tell you : Zero.

  45. We seem to alternate between years when the Offense is productive and the Pitching leaves a lot to be desired, a la 2016 and the reverse, a la 2015. The scenario you lay out above, Tim, wrt adding Quintana looks to me like 2015 all over again. I’m not impressed by the every day players mentioned above. Not enough run production, imo.

      • How is that a mediocre lineup?

        C – Cervelli has ranked #3 in fWAR the last two years out of 25 catchers with 600+ PAs. This doesn’t include being injured a lot in 2016, or his added value as one of the best pitch framers.

        1B – Freese has been consistent as a 2 fWAR player the last few years.

        2B/SS – Harrison and Mercer aren’t strong offensively, but bring defense and base running.

        3B – Kang might challenge Marte as the best player on the team, and that’s before a McCutchen trade.

        LF – Polanco still has a breakout in him.

        CF – Marte is very underrated, and is the best player on the team right now.

        RF – Plenty of free agent options. Could add a 2-3 WAR player.

        You’re looking at 2+ WAR at almost every position. Harrison and Mercer probably top out in the 1.5 range. Then you’ve got 2-3 positions that could have a 4 WAR or higher, along with above-average production at catcher.

        • Jordy was negative defensively this year.

          On paper, it doesnt look good enough. Unless Polanco takes a big step forward, I think it wouldnt be as good as last year, especially considering they had Srod and Joyce who over performed to some degree. Dont have them and would obviously have to find replacements who are affordable who do the same.

          I understand pitching would improve, but realistically the goal shouldnt be to take away from one to improve another. Keep Cutch and Bell. Try to make a deal happen with Glasnow, Newman and maybe Keller if need be. If the idea is to go for it, might as well send away the future that wont be playing in a Pirates uniform next season. They can always trade Cutch next off season.

          • Bell might be a worse defensive !st baseman than anyone currently playing the position in the NL. And he is not athletic and can’t throw.

        • I didn’t use the M-word myself, but compared to the Cubs, a lot has to go right with that lineup. And, we look to be getting ready to bump up against our self-imposed salary cap even after trading Cutch, so IDK where the free agent option who replaces the production of the nearly and dearly departed comes from.

          • LOL exactly? Please reveal this mystery player. The remains of John Jay just received a one year deal for 8M. Who are we signing to give us 2-3 WAR in outfield?

        • Freese doesn’t project anything near a 2 WAR player. Age matters, even for guys like Freese. As a 3b(with less burden on his bat than 1b) he is projected for .4 WAR in over 400 PAs with a 720 OPS.

        • As Mallorie points out Mercer rated very poor defensively last year per UZR/150 and had -9 runs saved defensively.

          An infield of Jaso/Freese at 1b, Jhay at 2b, Jordy at SS and Kang at 3rd looks anemic across the board with the exception of Kang and would probably be in the bottom tier of all infields in MLB in terms or projection.

        • In terms of team construction, it’s the 98 wins that’s a lot more relevant than the one-off Wild Card game (which 9 times out of 10, 98 wins will get you out of having to play). Just seems weird to me that you’d have any sort of reservations about trying to emulate literally one of the best Pirates teams ever.

  46. I think Tim is overstating Freese a bit and understating Bell. Freese isnt getting any younger…I have my doubts he’ll be getting any better, if not declining more. This past year for him was decent but not great.

    • How is he declining right now? Also, I’m not saying he’s a great player. He’s a 2 WAR/year player. That’s the bottom of the solid starter range. I think Bell could be 2-3 WAR, which is solid starter range. It’s a step above a role player, and a step below a good player. Two below All-Star, three below superstar, etc.

      • He’s 33…we’re talking about Cutch declining at 29-30. I just think there’s likely a greater chance he’s worse next year than better. At most, remains the same. Trading Cutch makes more sense than Bell. Not in same deal, but dont think lineup is good enough to lose both. Its a lot to expect Meadows to come up mid year and be able to fill that hole in the lineup immediately.

        • Cutch is declining with his speed and defense, which were big factors in his game. His health is also a question, and his smaller frame doesn’t help settle that question.

          Freese doesn’t rely on speed, and it’s easier for him to maintain strong defense as an infielder (and especially at first base) than Cutch in center field. He’s also in great shape for his age, and hasn’t dealt with injury problems.

          You do want to look at age, but you also want to look at the individual. Freese is a guy who doesn’t look like he’ll decline due to age from where he’s currently at.

  47. I don’t know know, the offense without Bell and cutch seems pretty pedestrian. Let alone an injury to marte or Kang really puts them in a pinch.

    • That’s why they’d need the free agent outfielder and help from the bench.

      Keep in mind that the offense for most of the 2016 season didn’t have Bell and had Cutch at his worst. And they still managed to be a top five offense in the NL.

      • That was due to luck, luck in getting ridiculous production out of Joyce, Rodriguez, Frezee and Jaso early on. I don’t see that happening again.

  48. I know it’s been proposed once, and probably will be again in these comments, but darn it, keep my boy Newman out of these trade talks!

    Just let me have this one, rooting for a kid in college and then on my Buccos in the Majors. It would be awesome.

    • If he can be replaced with Tucker i’m all for it. I’m a fan of Bell they way you are of Newman. Anyone but Bell (or Meadows). No, I don’t have a rational argument. Just a sloppy fan rooting for his favorites.

      • Get talent. Worry about where guys play later. Newman could play 2B with Moncada at 3B. He could be traded for something else.

  49. I’d prefer a Glasnow and Newman pairing and I think Newman will be a fine SS for many years to come. They could move Cutch for someone else’s top SS prospect and still be ready to replace Jordy.
    Rosario from the Mets is intriguing. I don’t want to beat the Mets thing to death but if they want Cutch there’s nothing stopping them form getting him. They can just as easily sort out the too-many-outfielders problem afterwards.
    Thanks, Tim, for your fine work.

    • I wonder if the outfield situation will open up now that Encarnacion has signed? He’s not an OF, but a big bat. Sometimes the big moves open up the rest of the market.

  50. I like a lot of it, but I think that bullpen ends up being a huge problem. We’ve been spoiled for years with the closer/setup combos of Grilli, Melancon and Watson. Root for a team with inconsistent 8th and 9th inning guys for a while and you’ll see how much that hurts. They should go over $100M if they want to win a title. I know your article showed averages, but teams that actually make that push to win a title tend to go higher during those years, even if their multi-year average is lower (I think…)

    • I think the fact that we’ve been spoiled for years makes us forget about what got the Pirates to that point: they went for lower cost relievers who had great stuff, looked like future late inning relievers, and they gave them a chance in that role. That’s what they’re doing all over again now. It’s not as comfortable, but it can work.

      That’s pretty much the line I was using when they moved from Hanrahan to Grilli/Melancon.

  51. I agree about getting Jose Quintana but I’d want to fix problems not make them if possible. Don’t trade any of the players you mentioned and ADD! The payroll would still be reasonable. Keep Watson (with Hudson and Rivero, a great 7,8,9), keep Cutch for now and certainly keep Bell. Especially considering the could around Kang. Imagine if we trade Bell and lose Kang. That would be terrible.

      • I realize an early season injury is a risk but can’t Meadows be considered depth that you’re chancing to have later in the season. And although a long shot Newman goes beserk and is ready by end of season. Maybe Santana is a dark horse. No matter which way the pirates look they’re taking a chance unless the payroll balloons unexpectedly. One thing I like about having Quintana is that they can clear the deck next year and go all in 2018 even if they stick with Cutch this year and it ends up being the wrong move at the expense of the 2017 pen.

      • But they are looking for young, top-shelf MI, therefore either Kevin Newman or Cole Tucker would have to be a part of the package. Catching is also one of their weaknesses, so possibly Elias Diaz.

        Freese in his ages 34, 35, and 36 seasons? And then we can hand off to a top prospect like Will Craig? I did not realize Craig was that good. He hit for a .775 OPS with little or no power at Short-Season, and fielded at 3B with 16 errors in only 46 games.

        • As much as I like Jordy Mercer he’s not a great option at SS and he’s only getting older. Newman could conceivably be the starting SS this summer. I really hope they don’t have to move him. Meadows, Keller, and Newman are the only guys in the system I hope they don’t have to move.

          • My thoughts exactly because I was hoping the Pirates by mid-Jun would field Newman at SS, Hanson at 2B, and Mercer would become the Utility IF for 3B, SS, 2B, and 1B. And, Newman and Hanson could be interchangeable at 2B/SS.

            Hate to see Bell go, because we need that LH Power in the lineup and we have passed on legitimate First Basemen in the Draft. AJ Reed would have been a big chip in a trade.

            • Are you hoping for another “bridge year” ? That infield you suggest isn’t going to compete, particularly since Hanson is not a MLB caliber SS.

        • I totally agree that Quintana is almost an essential for this team to compete, and we all know that the CWS have been spoiled by the Red Sox and Nationals.

  52. Great analysis but with the uncertainty of Kangs situation and Bells upside I don’t think trading him would be the best option, Tim. Do you think a package of Glasnow, Hayes, Kingham, and another lower level prospect gets it done?

      • With his arrest in Korea, I thought he could still be charged?

        Is there anyway we would pull it off without giving up Bell?

        • I think that just means he won’t be able to drive and will lose his license. I don’t think there’s any real risk of criminal charges beyond that.

          If you don’t include Bell, you need to include one of Meadows or Keller. And I’m not sure how much value Keller would have compared to the other two.

            • I am salivating as much as anyone else over the prospect of getting Quintana. That said, I am not willing to give up Bell. I think that his offensive upside is far too high–in my opinion, Albert Puljos kind of high–to part with. Meadows and Bell should be untouchable.

      • To me, the real uncertainty of Kang’s situation is the recurrence of alcohol related problems. Once can be silliness. When the circumstances recur it starts to look like an alcohol problem. I believe MLB has an dependency intervention program, but if Kang doesn’t recognize it as a problem, then we’re just waiting for the next incident.

Comments are closed.