Pirates Reportedly Still Trying to Acquire Jose Quintana After the Ivan Nova Deal

The Pirates agreed to a three-year, $26 M deal with Ivan Nova today, filling their need for a starting pitcher. This comes one day after rumors that the Pirates were trying hard to trade for White Sox left-handed pitcher Jose Quintana. After the Nova signing, one question was whether this meant the Pirates were out on Quentin. Apparently, the answer is no.

After confirming the Nova signing, Ken Rosenthal immediately reported that the Pirates were still going after Quintana. If the Pirates could pull that off, it would give them a great rotation, with Gerrit Cole, Jose Quintana, Jameson Taillon, Ivan Nova, and one of the starters from the young Indianapolis group (Chad Kuhl would be the likely leader). That would be a rotation that could contend during the season, and in any playoff series.

The current projected payroll, assuming that Nova’s deal is evenly split at $8.67 M per year, is $102.6 M. Quintana would add $6 M this year, and I’ve been working with the assumption all offseason that they’ve got a budget around $100 M. They could go over that a few million, like they did last year with the addition of David Freese (which put them starting a little north of $103 M). But adding Quintana would put them just below $109 M, and I’d think something else would have to give.

The easy solution there would be trading Antonio Bastardo and maybe Tony Watson as well. If you could unload both of those salaries, that would be $12.4 M off the books, leaving them around $97 M. But the Pirates would also need to boost their depth in the bullpen and on the bench, especially in the bullpen after trading Watson.

I honestly can’t see a trade happening for Quintana unless there’s also a trade of Andrew McCutchen. Buster Olney has written a few times (including this morning) that trading for Quintana would give the Pirates cover to deal McCutchen, since it would remove the “they’re not trying to win in 2017” line of thinking.

I would think that a McCutchen trade would be necessary for two reasons. One is that it would allow the Pirates to build up their depth across the board. The rotation and lineup would look good if they just acquired Quintana and made room for him by getting rid of the lefty relievers. But a few key injuries or poor performances from the offense or the bullpen makes this a team with a great rotation and problems elsewhere. We Β saw last year how depth really helped the Pirates overcome injuries and poor performance on offense, while a lack of depth killed them in the pitching department.

The other reason would be that this team could be affordable in 2017 with McCutchen, but I don’t see it being affordable beyond that point. The immediate depth is more important, but when factoring in future years, it might be best to deal McCutchen at a higher value, especially in a year where the free agent outfield market is so loaded. McCutchen would be more desired than the free agents, just because of who he is, and he might be an upgrade one-on-one versus most of the guys on the free agent list. But when you factor in the ability to add depth, plus the addition of a cheaper outfield, then the Pirates could end up with a lot more production in the aggregate, rather than just sticking with McCutchen alone.

Of course, all of this is jumping the gun a bit, since we don’t know if they would even be able to land Quintana. But if they do add him, I can’t see that being their only move.

  • Before we start booking our hotel rooms for NH’s induction to Cooperstown based on the Nova signing, a couple observations:

    1 – The Liriano trade was – and remains – a historically bad deal for the Bucs. FL pitched the final 1 & 2/3 innings of a Due or Die, One & Done play in game for Toronto on 10/4 and gave up no runs, no hits and no walks- getting the win. By virtue of the fact that Toronto NEEDED him to pitch in a critical post season situation is evidence alone that there was no way that our deadline trade justified giving up 2 legitimate prospects toToronto to “take him off our hands.”

    2 – I like the Nova signing

    3 – That the fruit of a poisonous tree is beginning to smell ok should not result in praise for NH.

    4 – if NH gets Quintana while keeping Meadows, Bell & Newman – yes I’ll make my security deposit on the Days Inn Schenectady

    Sent from my iPhone

    • Legit prospects? That’s laughable, they didny rank in our top ten. Rameriz is losing speed and can’t hit for power. That gives you at best Jose tabata(who is playing in the Mexican league I believe). We don’t need another Tabata. Second he was never going to have a shot to to start for the Pirates anyways. And now for Reese McGuire, hes a great defensive catcher with no signs of being able to hit. I hate hearing ” He was so much younger than the average age of the people in the minor league levels” that’s just another excuse. He had not hit very well at any level. If he continues to progress the way he has(which he probably will) he is no more than a chris Stewart type. And when they both got to Toronto they got hurt and missed most of the remainder of the season. Everyone is so butt hurt about the liriano trade, get over it. If you think Liriano was good for the Pirates last year then you are greatly mistaken. He was a big reason we didn’t make the playoffs. He pitched absolutely horrible.

  • I dont agree with the point you made aboit it not being affordable in future years. Cutch will be gone next year unless extended, because either he does well enough to get traded next offseason, or he doesnt do good enough to warrant the option. Plus bastardo and watson will both be gone this time next year. After the offseason after that marte, cole, mercer, harrison, cervelli are gone via trade or free agency iirc.
    Id be ok with one or two lefties being traded in order to get another righty bp arm. Overall, a trade for quintana is doable as long as one of meadows or bell stays (preferably meadows), taillon stays, and newman stays. With that said, is glasnow, bell, and say hayes or y. Garcia a reasonable offer?

  • Adding Nova is a good first step. Adding Quintana what seem to be a great second step

  • In reading the comments I feel your pain. It seems like a good idea to trade top prospects to try to win now. It has been so long since they won a championship that now seems like the right time but is it? Hate to say this but the Cubs will still be the better team.

    • I concur….the Nova signing was nice…but a small-market team, not favored to make the playoffs, shouldn’t be trading away the future for an outside shot to win a wild card berth.

      • I think quintana would make them favorites for the wc and possibly push for the division if a few breaks go their way

        • if “the breaks” consist of the Cubs dying in a fiery plane crash…yes, the Pirates have a chance if the breaks go their way.

          Otherwise, I would think it’s crazy to throw away the future for a shot at the wild card.

          • How is trading for a pitcher who be untended team control for 4 years “throwing away the future?”

          • Besides, you don’t need to win the division to win the world series. For example, last year if we had made the playoffs i still wouldnt have liked our chances. But by adding quintana you would have a rotation that that could at least give them a legit chance to win any night.
            Im not even worried about regular season. Thos team as currently constructed will compete for the wc. Adding quintana makes them favorites for wc.
            If theres ever a year to go all in, this is the year to do it.

  • You trade your top prospects for Quintana and you narrow your window for success. Would not make this trade unless NH really believes this puts us in the World Series and I am not sure that’s the case.

    • when do you think Cubs can be beaten again…2018? 2019? Some point you have to go for it…

      • I am naturally cautious. Several years ago the Royals traded Zack Greinke and later traded their top two prospects and went to two World Series. So you may be right. I just wouldn’t do it. That’s me which is why I am not making big bucks as a GM.

  • I’m not all that sure the Sox want Glasnow over Meadows.

    Why would they? Just because Pirates’ fans are down on him because he failed to progress?

  • If this happens I really hope they keep Keller.

  • dgarshaw@gmail.com
    December 22, 2016 5:48 pm

    …to Chicago for Quintana.

  • dgarshaw@gmail.com
    December 22, 2016 5:47 pm

    Guys, it seems to me the Bucs could work out a three-way deal where Cutch goes to a club that brings good prospects to us and we ship them with maybe one or two of ours without losing any of our top ten.

    • Well…another way of looking at that is…theoretically…would the Sox accept Cutch and two prospects outside of our top-ten for Quintana?

      No, they wouldn’t.

      • Cutch wouldn’t make sense to them. That doesn’t mean he doesn’t carry the necessary trade value, but he’d be more valuable to a team who weren’t rebuilding. The White Sox wouldn’t want McCutchen instead of prospects because that defeats the point of selling, and only for that reason.

        • That’s why I threw in “theoretically”.

          I know the CWS have no need for Cutch.

          My point was, does Cutch + two outside of the top 10 prospects = Quintana?

          Well, if you believe the Cutch regression to be real…No, under not circumstances is that equal value.

          If you think it was just a blip and he’ll be back to his old self in ’17…Yeah, it’s probably a fair exchange of assets.

          I’d put myself in between. The days of 5+ WAR are gone, but I don’t think ’17 will be as bad as ’16.

          But, no, in a theoretical swap…Cutch and two guys outside of the top 10 (as offered in the original post) does not get you Quintana.

          • Had we landed whatever we could have gotten in the deal with the Nationals, though, I think there’s a decent chance we save ourselves at least one of our top five prospects.

            • Perhaps…but that’s not what the original post was.

              It was: the return for Cutch (or, Cutch’s value) plus one…or maybe two guys outside of the top ten would be enough to land Quintana.

              That, I disagree with.

              If you want to narrow it to Cutch’s value and one or two out of the top five…I think that’s getting warmer.

  • What, no demand for Hutchinson in this proposed deal??

  • read where Chicago looking for bats for their targeted top prospects. If so, and the Bucs deal Cutch, then it would be Cutch and probably a 10-20 level prospect to “Team X”; 3 2-20 level hitting prospects from “Team x” to White Sox; and Quintana to the Bucs. If so the question would be: which Team X needs Cutch and has 3 top positional prospects to trade ?

    • You can never have enough Pitching prospects not all pan out. Glasnow and Newman should be a good starting point.

  • Watson and Cutch to the Mets.
    Quintana and Bruce to the Bucs.
    Package of prospects from the Mets to the Sox.

    … plus whatever minor pieces needed to round it out.

    Bruce in RF for a year until Meadows is ready. We don’t lose any prospects (other than any non-top-ten pieces needed to balance out the equation / if any). We get (what is it) five years of Quintana and Bruce allows ’em to compete in 2017.

  • Trade for Quintana, Trade Cutch, put Bell in RF, and sign Encarnacion and his 40 HRs to play 1B!!! That would be a nice lineup, Move Watson and Bastardo, too, in whatever order gives you the greatest return and “financial flexibility.”

  • Tim- completely disagree. if they get quintana they CANT trade Cutch…..at least not until they team could be struggling around the trade deadline. Keeping cutch and going after it like this is exactly what the fanbase needs to feel confident about our attempt to win, and none of it hurts us for the future. Trading watson is fine, bastardo as well…….okay, so that clears us, no need to trade cutch, and still room to pick something up later at the deadline without us being in poor financial position. If cutch is doing well and we struggle, we trade him at the deadline……..if cutch struggles along with the pirates, we still trade him- if everything goes well…….we have a chance to actually be at our best and get somewhere in the playoffs. trading cutch just leaves us with a very similar team as last year……..no real improvement. the best chance to get this team better with 2 players is a top starter and cutch regressing to the mean- nothing else we can do will have bigger positive impact. Plus- if we were going to get what we wanted for cutch, it would have already happened. Unless a major injury occurs somewhere in the league of course which increases immediately need.

    • They could operate in a way to make the fanbase feel the most comfortable, or they could operate in a way to give them the best chance of winning short and long term. I’d rather have the latter.

      • Amen!

      • this isn’t about comfort. its about giving us the best chance to win a championship. spending 7 million extra this year to keep cutch in no way effects our ability to contend going forward.

  • Moving from a $103 million payroll to $110 to start the season would only be an increase of 7%. I don’t know that is an unrealistic expectation to need to invest that amount.

    • Did they actually spend 103m last year. Didn’t they save $$ on the Liriano trade?

      • They shed that once he underperformed. I dont think it was about budget only, but, performance for budget and analysis of his ability to bounce back. And Tim notes the $103 as boy payroll. There should still be growth from that number. If they dont perform, then they dump contracts again for underperforming talent.

  • Got to think outside the box.
    1. Make Polanco the centerpiece of the Quintana trade. Bell can play RF. Throw in Glasnow. Not sure if that would get it done, but would be close and would preserve remaining prospects.
    2. Trade Harrison and use Frazier/Hanson as stop gap until Newman is ready for SS, then move Jordy to 2B.
    3. Move Cutch to LF until Meadows is ready, then trade Cutch at deadline for prospects.
    4. Trade Bastardo for salary relief.

    Lineup:
    C – Cervelli
    1B – Freese/Jaso
    2B – Frazier/Hanson
    SS – Jordy
    3B – Kang/Freese
    RF – Bell
    CF – Marte
    LF – Cutch

    …and a kick ass rotation and pen.

    • Polanco is exactly the sort of player the Pirates need to retain, though. Inexpensive, productive, and with upside to grow. If we have to deal Polanco to get Quintana, I wouldn’t do it.

    • Actually, I kind of agree with this. Polanco’s size is a concern to me as he already seems to have nagging knee and shoulder issues. Speed looks like it is going if not gone…

  • Am I the only one who views trading for Quintana and subsequently dealing Cutch as a rob Peter to pay Paul scenario?

    There are ways to have both of them for next two seasons.

    • If Cutch’s decline is permanent, is he worth holding on to? Wouldn’t a younger player like Meadows actually make the team better…

      • I certainly hope Meadows turns into the next franchise player like Cutch has proven to be. But to suggest he will come in and be a 4-5 WAR player, which Cutch could realistically be this year, is a leap of faith I’m not ready to make.

        • What makes you confident Cutch can be even a 2 WAR player?

          • PiratesFan1975
            December 22, 2016 5:14 pm

            For me his previous 7 major league seasons and his 2nd half last year. I think Meadows will be very good to great. Especially if allowed to develop at AAA like McCutchen was aso opposed to rushing him like Polanco. To me McCutchen in 2017 makes the Pirates better now and the future. The longer Meadows develops in the minors the more prime the Pirates get from his 6+ years of control.

            • But he is THE WORST DEFENSIVE OUTFIELDER in mlb – give your young pitchers a fighting chance back them up with solid defense and not guys in decline.

              • Shouting it in ALL CAPITAL LETTERS doesn’t make it true!

              • PiratesFan1975
                December 23, 2016 7:41 am

                No…. he was the worst defensive CF in MLB. Many bad defensive CF see their defensive value increase in the corner OF spots. There were 2 worse defensive OFs just on the Pirates team last year btw. Josh Bell and Matt Joyce.

          • I actually believe he could be better that 5 WAR if moved to a corner OF position.

    • Starting pitching was the reason the team won 98 games and the reason they lost 84 games last year. Period. The interest in Quintana indicates that NH learned his lesson and wants to solidify the rotation for the next few years. as to cutch? He is done here after 2018 regardless. So keep him for 2017 or trade him but chances are he isn’t here in 2018. Move him when his value is highest and only when u get the value u need

    • True. Not necessary to trade Cutch to anyone to get Quintana.

    • The hole in the rotation is larger. And if trading McCutchen gets us the prospects to either replace the ones we’d have to deal for Quintana, or who we could trade in place of those guys–especially the ones who can contribute this year like Bell, Meadows, and Newman–I think it’s worth it. It’s not just about salary relief, it’s about asset management.

    • Trading Cutch makes you better defensively

  • I’d trade any of the SP prospects for Quintana. With the addition of Nova and Quintana we’d have a much lower need for a SP. Would be great. Quintana under contract for 4 years, Nova for three. But if we traded Bell we’d be significantly weakening the team with a void at 1B. This is especially considering the uncertainty regarding Kang. Freese may be our starting 3B. Newman and Glasnow plus a lower level prospect would be good. Makes the team better short term and long term.

    • You assume Bell an play a decent first base – on what do u base that?

      • I’m not assuming he’s great, but last year he wasn’t terrible. But more importantly, I saw his hitting ability. His combination of discipline and power will get great results at the plate. He’s no Pedro Alvarez- better glove and a much better overall hitter. I think Bell can hit close to 300 with 25+ homeruns. Plus a ton of walks. Yes, his glove isn’t great yet. But remember, he was an OF until recently. I bet he can improve.

  • So, if its Glasnow and Newman to Chi then we need to get Rosario and Matz from the Mets for Cutch.

    If its Glasnow and Bell to Chi then we need to get Matz and Dom Smith form the Mets.

    If its Glasnow and Meadows to Chi then we need to get Matz and Conforto from the Mets.

    Its a lot of rearranging but Rosario and Matz seems like the best deal.

    I think the GM’s involved should take a timeout. Cabin fever?

    • I’d like to see the Glasnow and Newman trade if and only if we get Rosario back for McCutchen. Deal with mets needs to be in place before we trade for Quintana.

      • Your take and my edit are in agreement. I don’t know how to get one deal in place before the other as there’s always a chance the other guy could change his ask once you commit. Seems like a three team deal with a minor exchange between Chi and NY. Or maybe a three team deal where one team trades with two others but the whole thing is contingent on it happening at the same time. Man, this is getting complicated.

        • By in place they need to be talking to the mets and making sure Rosario is available.

          • Yep. I’d have it locked down, as in “he’s on the way”,though. Be nice to have Rosario and Quintana once the dust settles. I suspect Newman will be a fine player for a long time. Glasnow could win trophies or be a head case.

            • For a long time I was excited for him, but I have heard rumors he is stubborn about wanting to pitch the way he has his whole career. I think he will likely be a major bust. He could end up having a nice career as a starter but I assume more likely him to be a reliever or just a total bust. That’s just me but I’m not the only one who thinks so.

    • I don’t see a trade of McCutchen to the Mets are likely under any scenario – at least not until the Mets dump 2 current outfielders.

      • As well, the Mets are looking for a CF…

        …not to beat a dead horse, but there’s no way that’s the position Cutch should be playing. Pirate fans may not object out of nostalgia, but I don’t know of many other teams willing to cripple themselves on defense by slotting him there.

        But, yeah…I don’t see the Mets adding an OF until they drop two.

  • Getting Quintana also means you have 4 quality starters that can go 6 to 7 innings and keep pressure off the bull pen. that allows the bucs to trade Bastardo and possibly Watson. But they can’t get Quantana without trading cutch for prospects and saving 20 million on trading those two. that gives the bucs about 89 million in sunk cost going into 2017.

  • Just a little pontificating on my part here. Everyone seems to think it is going to take 2 of our top 5 prospects to land Quintana. However, the asking price of the Rangers was their top 2 prospects, plus a couple lottery tickets. The top 2 prospects in the Rangers system were in the 20 and 50 range on top 100 lists. So, if Glasnow is truely being discussed, I would think the second prospect would likely come from the 50-75 range, not the top 50. That would include 2 players in our system to varying degrees. Kevin Newman or Ke’Bryan Hayes. I like both of this players, but I don’t think either of them would cause me to not trade for Quintana.

    It is likely going to take a prospect haul to get him, but if the deal is Glasnow, Hayes, Brault, Diaz +/- I think you make that trade.

    • You make that trade hoping the White Sox dont reneg on it. That would be a steal by NH. To only have to give up one top prospect…I’d do that in a heartbeat.

    • For me a better basis for return is what the White Sox got for Sale…..now you can decide if the deal makes sense….

    • Do we really know what the asking price was? Are 2 lottery picks not about the same as low first round, high second round picks allowing you to choose your own prospects as well as gaining added money to allocate throughout the draft which is a bonus as well.

  • With Nova in the fold, I would be happy with Trevor Cahill manning the 4 spot in the rotation. I know he’s not as good as Quintana, but we also get to keep our prospects.

  • I can trade Bell, Glassnow and Holmes, but not Newman!! Will Craig is a hit machine and he will easily replace Bell.

    • Craig has not been around long enough to make that assertion. I would not trade Bell!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

      • Why do you value Bell so high? Meadows and Newman can both run and play good defense. Bell is an on base machine, but is slow and might only be able to play RF. We have Polanco in RF.

      • BallHeadWonder
        December 22, 2016 3:13 pm

        @bucs1971 Craig has gotten better every year since he step on campus at Wake!! He caught on late last season and I expect he will breakout next season and be ready for ’18!! Plus, our window is very small and a trade for a proven arm with 3 years is worth the risk!!

        • You expect that he will break out next year and be ready in 2018. You have no way of knowing for sure, and I don’t say that you should. But to say that Craig will be a suitable replacement for Bell is a very premature prediction at this juncture.

  • The problem I have with including Bell in a package for Quintana is that its taking away from current roster. Especially with uncertainty around Kang early in the season, Freese may have to play 3rd full time to start season. Jaso…I was underwhelmed by end of year and while I think he’s serviceable, they need a more serious bat at 1st. We can question his defense (dont think it will ever be as bad as Pedro’s and I have hope it will improve), but his bat is legitimate.

    If a deal cant be done without including Meadows or Bell in it, I’d trade Meadows. Quintana would signal that theyre going for it now. Keep Cutch and go for it this year. That way youre not taking away from current roster. They always have option to move Bell into right field if they do trade Cutch in future and then move Freese to first.

    • Cutch was a negative WAR player last year. If Meadows is even a 1.5-2 WAR player from June on, that would be an improvement. There’s no guarantee Cutch ever returns to previous heights.

      • So, youre saying, trade Cutch. I wouldnt be opposed. A 3 way trade…Cutch to Team A who send prospects to White Sox for Quintana. Honestly, that’s most ideal scenario. Complicated, but that would be best for Pirates. That way they keep everybody or close all of their prospects.

        • If they can get the type of prospects for Cutch that would land Quintana, wouldn’t that already have happened independently of this deal? I’m skeptical that they could get a third party involved that would offer the propsects for Cutch that are equal to the price being asked out of the Pirates’ own farm system.

          • Maybe send Cutch and Glasnow to get the other team to send those prospects. I think that would still be okay.

            • Hmm, I thought the idea would be Cutch OR Top 5 guy, not both. That would be a steep cost IMO.

              • Better than giving up too much future…the other way would be giving up Glasnow, Meadows or Bell, maybe Newman or Keller…That’s a lot of future.

                • Agreed, multiple Top 5 guys is prohibitive to me. I guess I’d consider Cutch and the least valued prospect (as determined by Pirates scouting) of Glasnow, Keller, or Newman. To me Meadows, Bell, and the better of Glasnow/Keller are untouchable.

                  • For me, Bell and Meadows are necessary for now and short term future. If you get Quintana, losing Glasnow is more reasonable.

        • I do. I’d love to see Cutch return to form in a Bucs uniform but the signs don’t look good and I think Meadows is legit if he can stay healthy. I don’t know if it’s bad luck or conditioning but his injury history is concerning. His talent though is undeniable and think he could become one of the best young players in baseball rather quickly. His numbers at AAA last year were all due to bad luck with BABIP.

      • PiratesFan1975
        December 22, 2016 4:57 pm

        On 1 (Baseball Reference) of 3 systems of WAR. He was 0.7 on Fangraphs and 2.2 on Baseball Prospectus. And all the projections have him higher than Meadows for 2017. There’s more of a guarantee that McCutchen is 3+ WAR than Meadows is next year.

    • Agreed. If NH can pull this off without including Bell and Meadows, that would be the best scenario. Glasnow, Newman, and Hayes might get it done.

      • Middle inf who can hit are rare. If I knew Bell would hit 30hrs a year, I would feel better about keeping him. But since I don’t have that feeling. I would trade him before Meadows and Newman. Meadows and Newman can both hit, run and play good defense. Bell can just hit.

  • I am going tred lightly on the following. A) I would assume Bell would be going in a trade along w Kingman or Glasnow. If Bell goes that would mean Cutch would stay through 2018, Meadows won’t ready this year maybe a Sep call up. To me most likely next June. Maybe 2019 he would be ready for an everyday spot. B) does anyone know the legal status or MLB stance on Kang for being here next year w the DUI pending. I know here in the states leaving the scene of a crime is a felony. I bring that up only bc what are the chances of bringing Todd Frazier over in a trade? I like Freese but he isn’t an everyday player at this point in his career. Frazier and Q would be nice return for the right price. I believe Frazier’s contract isn’t a lot and has a couple of years on it. 30 HR bat and above average defensively at 3rd. Also, that would give us a much better chance of winning w Cutch and take a lot of pressure off of him.

    • PiratesFan1975
      December 22, 2016 4:51 pm

      Frazier is projected to make $13.5M this coming year in arbitration then is a free agent.

  • andrew.oneill88
    December 22, 2016 11:03 am

    This sounds too complicated…Just sign a high-upside reclamation project like Tyson Ross and trade Bastardo for bench depth. No reason to give up the farm for Quintana.

  • Meadows is a non starter to me as is Tallion and Keller. Meadows needs to keep getting bats in the AAA until he is really ready. My thinking is move J Hay to LF or RF and Freese, Mercer, Kang (2nd) and Bell/Jaso at 1st.

  • I would rather NH go after Tyson Ross on a 1 yr deal instead of trading for Quintana. This scenario would bolster the rotation for the upcoming yr, preserve our prospect depth, and allow Glasnow a yr to develop in AAA, so that he can be the rotation addition next year and the following 5 after.

    • This would also be the cheaper option long-term, you know, for #FinancialFlexibility

    • I disagree… Ross has proven to be an enigma, in my opinion. Quintana is really coming into his own and would be going to a pitchers park and a league without the DH. Quintana would absolutely give the Pirates a great rotation.

      • Also I am really starting to wonder more and more about Glasnow. Keeping the walks in check is one thing considering his frame and age, but why has he still not developed a change? That is unacceptable in my eyes and calls into question how “coachable” he is. Or at least calls into question his overall makeup.

        • It took Randy Johnson awhile to develop. A pitcher of similar stature. The only one I know.

          • Agree with you on that. That’s why I note his age and frame, but also bring up the point on his lack of developing a change for two years!

    • I love your line of reasoning and agree with it, to a point. The most important part of your point is preserving our prospect list. On the other hand, Quintana could give us a legitimate chance to go all the way through October. Ross on the other hand is a roll of the dice. I would not have a problem it they did what you suggest here, but it is not as sure of a bet, if there is such a thing, as if the Bucs obtained Quintana .

  • Ken Rosenthal on MLBN is saying that Glasnow is definitely included in the possible Quintana trade.

    If Glasnow is included in the deal, then what could be the other pieces?
    Kingham?
    Bell?
    Holmes?
    Keller?
    Hayes?
    Tucker?
    A young lotto ticket like Ogle, Hinsz, et al.

    I don’t believe they’d want to move Newman.

    • Agreed. Quintana is a left handed version of what Glasnow could be for the next couple years. Maybe Glasnow ends up better than Quintana, but I’ll take that certainty over the upside.

      • Throw in a 50/50 adj that he never develops control and doesn’t have the temperament for the bullpen.

    • If it is Glasnow or Meadows, then the second prospect likely isn’t in the top 50 of prospect rankings. However, it will likely come down to the ChiSox internal analysis. I don’t think Kingham would even be discussed, but Newman, Hayes, Diaz, Brault and Kuhl are all probably part of the discussion.

  • If we can hold onto Newman and Bell to get Quintana, we should do it. I think they’re both too important to the success of the team both this year and next.

    • Bell is a hitter to dream on, but his lack of defensive value makes him a better fit for the AL. I think he and Glasnow are the main pieces that go to the Sox in a Quintana deal, and the team puts Freese/Jaso out there at 1B, worries about 2018 and beyond later.

      • He’ll develop faster in the AL. Neil Walker at 1b in 2018.

      • No, I am not parting with Bell. I will reluctantly give Glasnow, but find other pieces besides Bell. As a hitter, he has far too high a ceiling. Not going there!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    • Include Meadows on the “must keep” list and I am in.

      • Include Bell, Keller, and Newman too, on that list, and I am in.

      • I just assumed that was understood.

        I don’t want to give up anyone who can contribute as early as this season at a position where we wouldn’t be deep. We’re deep at pitcher if we get Quintana. We’re not deep at first base, and we’re not deep at shortstop, and if Cutch is dealt, too, we’re not deep in the outfield. We need Meadows, Bell, and Newman.

        I’d consider moving Glasnow and one of Keller, Hayes, Craig, or Tucker, and one other lesser prospect as needed. Newman is the only guy in our system who actually profiles as a leadoff hitter. Bell and Meadows are the only two close to profiling as middle of the lineup hitters. With Cutch either declining or on his way out of the door, and Kang with all his off the field issues, those guys will be important.

    • I agree completely!!

  • This’ll make the Bucs rotation one of the best in MLB if this happens. DT is tweeting that the Bucs should get Conforto/Matz for Cutch. I can’t imagine the Mets doing that as I think Conforto alone could be better than Cutch this year.

  • The cost in prospects will be prohibitive and it will mark the end of the pirates contending 3 years from now and in the future when Nova, Cole, Cutch and others are gone with no one to replace them. They got Nova and should be done until the trade deadline.

    • Polanco, Marte, Meadows, Bell, Taillon, Keller… all with the Bucs well beyond 3 years. I wouldn’t worry.

      • Yes, but that is assuming that they don’t part with some combination of Bell, Meadows, and Keller to get Quintana.

        • Any consideration of Quintana has to start with Glasnow being the key piece. May then need to add Newman and Keller but would keep meadows and bell in the fold. I think meadows needs to be kept as well as Newman at all costs. Bell could go.

          • Not sure the Sox need Newman. Their top prospect before all the trades was a SS. And they just got Moncada from the Red Sox. I think they would demand Bell or Meadows plus Glasnow. As a start.

          • If I am Neal H., I am not going beyond Glasnow in terms of our top tier prospects. If the cost is more than Glasnow and some lower level prospects, then I forget about Quintana and look elsewhere.

    • Lets start contending first then we can worry about not contending. This would be a great deal and if Cutch can bring a lot the assets to get Quintana then that becomes a great move. I hope it happens.

    • Do you really think they would get nothing for those 3?

    • I agree with everything that you say here except being done until the trade deadline. If getting Quintana means parting with at least two top prospects, I say don’t do it, and look elsewhere for another veteran starting pitcher. The Rays still have several pitchers, one of whom could perhaps be obtained, but at not near the cost in prospects. I just am not going to trade Bell, Meadows, Neman, or Keller. I’d reluctantly part with Glasnow, but that is it. Perhaps they could deal Cutch for prospects and then flip those prospects for Quintana. It should be interesting in the coming days. I think something is going to happen, and soon.

  • I think you’re looking at the dreaded 3 team trade scenario…Sox get Glasnow and a bucket of prospects from mystery team…Pirates get Quintana and a relief arm…Mystery team gets Cutch

    I know there’s always more…but if the Buccos can make that trade…I think they do. No, it’s not multiple 6yr guys, but it can address the present and does so without touching the future

    • Three team deals are very very rare

      • O I agree completely… But the last time we had our big name OF go… It was in a 3 team trade. It’s just as rare to be trading someone who has been top 5 in the MVP race multiple years with 2 left on his contract. So I just don’t think it’s as simple as Neal depleting the Buccos farm for Quintana… I see him trying to deplete someone else’s farm to get the deal done.

  • Impossible to believe they’d splurge this year @ $103m after getting rid of Bastardo or Watson? Make up the money next year if Cutch comes off books or restructures. If Cutch has a great year maybe JHay leaves in a Lirianoesque trade. I think Quintana pays for himself.

  • I honestly don’t see why this means that they have to trade Cutch. Especially if somehow Bell is included in the deal?

    As for Quintana, I like the Glasnow or Keller, plus a Hayes and Holmes (or similar type players) works for me. I’d rather hang on to Newman AND Meadows. As much as I like Jordy, Newman looks like he’ll be a lot better. IF we got Quintana, we could move a young pitcher or two.

    I hope NH does it. Even IF Tim has to take a couple of pages out of the Prospect Book. πŸ™‚

    • agree for the most part…I really don’t want the team to loose Meadows or Newman. Newman will move Jordy to 2b make them very strong up the middle with Marte behind them. I just have one of those feelings that Glasnow will never have very good control and can’t seem to harness the change up. Keller seems to be on a better track then him, Cole, and Taillon at similar times…I would hate to loose Bell but have a feeling that if we wanted Q, then Bell is gone.

      • Far easier to find 1bs than elite pitchers on controllable $10/yr 2-4yr salaries.

      • I would hate to see Bell go. 300 hitter with power and can and has played RF. I would rather see polanco go before bell

        • Absolutely not. Polanco’s combination of offensive, defensive and base running makes him more valuable than Bell. Not to mention his team friendly contract.

          • I agree with you Scott, but you could probably trade Polanco or Marte straight up for Quintana. Or maybe combine them with a minor prospect or two. You keep your top 5 prospects versus trading two of them. 4 of the 5 should be in majors within the next year.

            • You are kidding, right ? The CWS have shown they are looking for young prospects.

              • Yea, but sort of. I value starting pitching more than position players. See Braves and Giants. I also think that having the best defensive outfield is over rated. I’m ok with Bell in RF. With Meadows on the horizon that makes two of the five expendable. I’m not sold on Bell at 1st. The Sox are looking for players with years of control. 5 or more would fit that.

        • You are crazy

        • You have to be smoking crack to want to trade Polanco.

      • No no no no on moving Mercer to 2B! He’s barely average as a fielder and replacement level as a hitter. There’s no advantage to keeping him around as a 2B. Once you have someone better, he’s a backup or he’s gone.

    • Especially since we do not know what if any punish is meted out to Kang. Keep Cutch and go for it.

      • Kang isn’t likely to lose much if any time due to his latest legal problem. No injuries and barely over legal limit in a foreign country.

    • Glasnow or Keller, plus a Hayes and Holmes (or similar type players) works for me. – you are nuts. Hayes???????/ no f’ing way. finding a good 3rd baseman is about as rare as finding a good two way catcher

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