37.9 F
Pittsburgh

First Pitch: Some Things I Learned Along the Way

Published:

In yesterday’s Q&A hosted by Wilbur Miller, he got a question that asked about what he would have liked to know sooner when scouting players. Wilbur has been contributing on this site since 2010, just like myself. Both of us were scouting Pittsburgh Pirates minor league games on our own long before that time. I believe I still have pages of notes somewhere on Andrew McCutchen, seeing him in person at three different levels of the system, multiple times at each level, and he’s just one of the more recent pre-Pirates Prospects examples.

Wilbur gave his answer to the question in the Q&A, then we talked about it a little in an email, along with Tim Williams. So this morning I’m going to give the two examples of things I wish I knew earlier, while Tim is going to share his tomorrow.

There are many examples of things I look for now that I didn’t before. I can’t just watch a Pirates minor league game for fun anymore, especially not one streamed online where you can see so much more about pitchers. In person I’m looking at everything going on and taking notes, to the point that I’ve been at games that ended and I didn’t realize it was the ninth inning or who was leading the game. That’s from years of learning about things to watch for during games, along with a desire to get the best scouting reports possible.

There are two examples of things I wish I knew earlier and have looked for since working on this site, which I want to share here. One immediately popped into my head, which I’ll look at first. The second one was the first thing I thought of once we decided to make this a three-part series and I needed more than one example.

I learned to watch where infielders play. I won’t call out anyone specific because there are multiple examples of guilty players, but I mentioned a few times in the early days of this site that I couldn’t believe some infielders were getting to grounders nowhere near their position, showing a ton of range. I mentioned a particular example in passing to one of the pitchers and he said something to the effect of “He only gets to those balls because he plays so deep.”

The next game I went to, I started noticing where the infielders set up. When I got a chance to see that particular player again, I noticed he was about ten feet farther back and sure enough, he made a stop on a ball up the middle that no one else would make. He didn’t have a play, but it still looked good because of how far he went for it. Then I noticed that playing back also made slow grounders look like more difficult plays. He was charging in, throwing on the run and it looked like a great play, but if he wasn’t positioned on the outfield grass, then it would have been a routine play.

Once I saw what was going on, it seemed hard to believe that I missed it, but I was being fooled by positioning. It was an adjustment to how I looked at some players defensively and what I always look for now.

Then second example would have helped with some of our earlier rankings. I don’t remember exactly when we figured it out, it was definitely more than five years ago and probably closer to 7-8 years ago. You don’t need much as a lefty pitcher to be successful in the lower levels.

There were some lefties in the early days of this site that we overrated. They were putting up strong results in the lower levels that seemed too good to ignore. You could watch those pitchers get awkward swings and be nearly unhittable, all while not really being traditional looking prospects. The thing about southpaws is that if they throw strikes and have a decent breaking ball, they can get to Double-A fairly easy. We have seen it happen, then saw those pitchers hit walls at that level.

After it happened a few times, we tried to figure out where we (mainly I) were going wrong. Turns out, it should have been fairly obvious to me. I was a lefty pitcher growing up and there were two years that I was told that I was the only lefty in the league. I assume that was true, as I went years without facing a lefty pitcher as a batter. That’s a bit extreme, but hitters don’t get many reps against lefty pitchers growing up, so even right-handed batters can have trouble with a guy who throws high-80s fastballs, mixed with a breaking ball. I’ve seen lefties throwing mid-80s dominate at Low-A.

Now the results from a lefty in the lower levels are almost worthless and scouting reports are everything. You have to watch lefties a lot closer to find a reason that what they are doing could equal similar results at a higher level. I was fooled by guys who topped out at 90-91 MPH and threw strikes, because they’re making hitters look bad, but I know now that it’s not always something that would work at a higher level. You can get to the majors without average velocity, but that usually requires a mix of pitches and strong command. That would have been nice to know before I rated some guys higher than they should have been in the early years of the site.

As I said, there are many examples of things I’ve learned over the years, but these are two that really stood out when posed with the question yesterday.

SONG OF THE DAY

This song got stuck in my head last night after seeing an old episode of the Simpsons, where they do a parody of the song

DAILY QUIZ


RANDOM STUFF OF THE DAY

I thought this was a crazy coincidence worth sharing. Yesterday I posted a picture of Tom Prince on my Pittsburgh Pirates history page on Facebook. He was drafted by the Pirates back on January 17, 1984, two years before they held the last January draft. While looking for his minor league card, I noticed a pitcher named Dave Rooker and wondered if he was related to Jim Rooker. I looked at the card for a few, checking for a resemblance, but that’s it. Hours later, the same Dave Rooker commented on the picture of Prince.

I could see if I mentioned Rooker, then I would have been slightly surprised that word got back to him, but it wouldn’t have been the first time that happened on the history page. I see people all of the time (as in often enough that I’m not surprised) with the same last name commenting on photos. In this case however, it was just a thought as I scrolled through the set of cards and then out of nowhere, that player from 34 years ago posts a comment. To answer your question, he is related.

THIS DATE IN PIRATES HISTORY

By John Dreker

Five former Pittsburgh Pirates born on this date, plus a transaction involving a Hall of Famer.

On this date in 1947 the Pittsburgh Pirates purchased all-star first baseman Hank Greenberg from the Detroit Tigers for $75,000. He had led the AL in both homers and RBIs in 1946 at the age of 35, but the Tigers put him on waivers anyway, where he was picked up by the Pirates. Not only did they pay a high price to acquire him, he was also paid $100,000 for the season, the first player to reach that six figure salary level. He would hit just .249 with 25 homers and 74 RBIs for the Pirates but he was able to lead the NL in walks with 104, despite missing 29 games throughout the season. That was his only year for the Pirates as he retired after the season, although he contributed to the team for years to come thanks to his help with a young Ralph Kiner, who credited Greenberg with making him a better hitter. Greenberg was elected to the Hall of Fame in 1956.

Eddie Moore, utility fielder for the 1925 World Series winning Pirates. He started his pro career in the minors in 1922, playing two full seasons before the Pirates made him a September call-up, getting him into six late seasons games. He made the 1924 Pirates Opening Day roster, but he was seldom used until the Pirates decided to bench a struggling Pie Traynor. In a move that ultimately helped the Pirates, Moore got injured in the middle of a hot streak, allowing Traynor to get back in the lineup and he went on to have a Hall of Fame career. In 72 games in 1924, Moore hit .359 with 47 runs scored. The next season he was the starting second baseman. The Pirates went on to the World Series and Moore did his part with a .298 average, 77 walks, 77 RBIs and 106 runs scored. In the World Series, he hit .231 with a homer and five walks. In 1926 he was hitting .227 through 43 games when the Pirates sold him to Boston Braves. It seemed like they were giving up on him quickly but he was not well liked among the Pirates management for poor play, an argument with bench coach Fred Clarke, and they didn’t like the way he handled his contract signing. Moore was a .301 hitter in 263 games with the Pirates and finished his nine-year career with a .285 average in 748 games

Laurin Pepper, pitcher for the 1954-57 Pirates. He was a bonus baby signing, as the Pirates paid $35,000 for him to keep him from playing in the NFL where he was drafted by the Steelers. Under the rules of the time, a bonus baby signing had to spend two years on the Major League roster before he could be sent to the minors. Pepper rarely pitched those first two seasons, getting in a total of 70.2 innings over 28 games, nine as a starter. He pitched poorly mostly due to a lack of control. He had a combined 1-6, 8.66 record those 1954-55 seasons with 68 walks and just 24 strikeouts. In 1956, he had better overall Major League results, but the control problems were still an issue. He allowed 25 walks in 30 innings, and while his ERA was a respectable 3.00, those 30 innings were over seven starts and four relief appearances so his walks definitely shortened his outings. He pitched with the Pirates for one month during the 1957 season, his last year in the majors. He had an 8.00 ERA over nine innings. Pepper finished his pro career in the minors in 1963.

Charlie Eden, outfielder for the 1884-85 Pittsburgh Alleghenys. When he joined Pittsburgh in 1884, he had already played National League ball for the Chicago White Stockings in 1877 and the Cleveland Blues two years later. In 1879, Eden led the National League with 31 doubles and 41 extra base hits. The Alleghenys picked him up mid-1884 from Grand Rapids of the Northwestern League, where he had spent the previous year and a half. For Pittsburgh in 1884, the lefty hitting Eden batted .270 in 32 games, 31 as the center fielder, plus one as a starting pitcher. In 1885, he took over full-time in left field and hit .254 in 98 games, with 38 RBIs and 57 runs scored. Eden was again used as an emergency pitcher, starting once and pitching in relief three times. He has no known playing record in the pros after the 1885 season.

Justin Thomas, pitcher for the 2010 Pirates. He was a fourth round draft pick of the Seattle Mariners in the 2005 amateur draft. He began his pro career as a starter, before switching to the bullpen in 2009. He made his MLB debut in September, 2008 for the Mariners, pitching eight times in relief. He had a 6.75 ERA in four innings with nine hits and two walks allowed in his brief time with Seattle. On October 29, 2009 he was selected off waivers by the Pirates. During the 2010 season he had a few different stints with the Pirates, making a total of 12 appearances in which he compiled a 6.23 ERA in 13 innings. He spent all of 2011 in Triple-A, pitching 63 games with an 8-2, 3.89 record in 69.1 innings. In late November he signed with the Boston Red Sox and pitched a total of 11 more big league games, split between Boston and the New York Yankees.

Wandy Rodriguez, pitcher for the 2012-14 Pirates. He went 11-10, 4.16 in 30 starts and one relief appearance for the Pirates after they acquired him in a 2012 trade deadline deal for three prospects. Rodriguez pitched eight years for the Houston Astros prior to joining the Pirates and had an 80-84, 4.06 record in 218 starts and nine relief appearances. He last pitched in the majors for the 2015 Texas Rangers, though he signed with the Royals, Orioles and Astros between August 2015 and April 2016.

John Dreker
John Dreker
John started working at Pirates Prospects in 2009, but his connection to the Pittsburgh Pirates started exactly 100 years earlier when Dots Miller debuted for the 1909 World Series champions. John was born in Kearny, NJ, two blocks from the house where Dots Miller grew up. From that hometown hero connection came a love of Pirates history, as well as the sport of baseball. When he didn't make it as a lefty pitcher with an 80+ MPH fastball and a slider that needed work, John turned to covering the game, eventually focusing in on the prospects side, where his interest was pushed by the big league team being below .500 for so long. John has covered the minors in some form since the 2002 season, and leads the draft and international coverage on Pirates Prospects. He writes daily on Pittsburgh Baseball History, when he's not covering the entire system daily throughout the entire year on Pirates Prospects.

Related Articles

Article Drop

Latest Articles