Pirates Discussion: So Close, Yet So Far

After a late inning loss to the Nationals, the Pirates move to 10-9 in one run games.

Five of those 19 games have come in the last nine contests, with the Pirates going 2-3.

Pirates will try to end a four game losing streak, following the pounding they handed down to the Cubs, with Jose Quintana. The offense and bullpen have left a lot to be desired as of late, but Pirates overall have made the games more entertaining.

PIRATES @ NATIONALS

Time: 7:05 PM EST

Pirates Starter: Jose Quintana (1-4, 3.60)

Rays Starter: Patrick Corbin (3-10, 6.60)

Quintana Notes: Jose Quintana takes the bump for his 15th start of the campaign. After a rough three game stretch, Quintana got back on track against the lowly Cubs team, throwing six innings of two run ball. Nationals have a near league average offense, with a .701 Team OPS.

Lineups: Check back prior to the game.

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Pirates

Nationals

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Tim Williams

UPDATE: All of this week’s premium articles will drop on Thursday. More info:

https://piratesprospects.com/2022/06/p2daily-this-week-on-pirates.html

1979andCounting

Heineman and Crowe consult before PH Hernandez……..but no Marin? Then Crowe speeds up a PH bat by throwing second pitch 88 mph change up for the winning hit. Why not stay hard with FB and slider. Maybe a change only if deep in count, not on 2nd pitch.

skliesen

Fitting ending to another blown bullpen game due to MisManagerment (not a typo).

brooklynpirate

Was at the game in DC tonight. Of course the bullpen is generally bad, but Crowe was actually fine. A couple of weak ground balls, w/ perhaps some not great fielding at second base — one was a cheapo hit, the other looked like it could a DP but somehow they couldn’t turn it. Then a very dubious walk, from a very dubious ump. Then a drive that the infielder playing right field could quite corral (not saying it would have been an easy play, but a real right fielder I think catches it). I don’t think bullpen management was really the issue tonight.

But don’t get me started on Vanmeter playing, and batting 5th. It’s too gruesome.

brooklynpirate

that’s COULDN’T quite corral, of course.

Wilbur Miller

A team that was trying to win would conclude that its bullpen needed to be overhauled and its manager should be coaching junior high school.

TNBucs

What’s scary is I think they’re trying to win. But it’s looking more like after Huntington was fired, one bad hire led to another (a hockey guy as president hires a failed GM who then shows his inability to assess talent by hiring a manager who other teams had passed on).

Wilbur Miller

I think they’re trying to win.

I don’t. I think it’s all a product of an owner who doesn’t care what they do as long as the profits roll in and they don’t embarrass him with criminal trials and whatnot. The FO and manager know there won’t be any accountability, so they’re running the team in whatever way makes their life the easiest.

This mgmt team can be summed up in a story the other day that the beat writers thought was just marvelous. It was about Taillon leaving a couple expensive bottles of bourbon in Tampa for Dumbo. It’s nice that they’re all friends and everything, but all the evidence says that’s Dumbo’s only priority in running this team. They’re all just baseball lifers being chummy together. Fuck the fans.

TNBucs

I don’t disagree with anything you’ve written, just that I’m not giving Shelton or Cherington the excuse that “oh well, they’re not really trying to win” as an explanation for their mismanagement. I don’t think Nutting cares, but I’m afraid that, for example, Cherington thought he was putting together a decent pen but just isn’t very good at that. And Shelton thinks he’s optimizing his players’ chances of succeeding but really only knows to follow Maddon’s example of doing something that seems innovative without evidence or accountability of whether that something works.

mikeschalke

I was thinking tee ball.

roibert.kasperski

Rehak was ready to go home. Rung up Park twice on balls out of the zone

Last edited 1 month ago by roibert.kasperski
AdministrativeSky236

he was pretty bad all game, though i guess at least consistently bad

skliesen

Most definitely, but Park should have known he’s calling that high and away pitch a strike by then.

AdministrativeSky236

Yeah ive turned sides into taking that automatic strike zone now

PiratePrimate

Joke call, ump. You hosed Park

Last edited 1 month ago by PiratePrimate
PirateRican21

This Volgebach having a good eye narrative is driving me nuts, ha has a 29% k rate. Just because he doesn’t swing unless is middle of the plate doesn’t mean he has a good eye!!!!!!

patrick_kelly

Good eye. Bad bat to ball skills.

jon6er

Shelton’s like Hurdle in as he’s too stupid to manage a baseball team and too arrogant to realize it.

TNBucs

Comparing Shelton to Hurdle isn’t fair to Hurdle. Hurdle did things that frustrated me but I can’t imagine Shelton leading a team to the type of seasons the Pirates had in ‘13-‘15.

jon6er

I’ve have to agree with you there. It was those following years when he used to attack the harmless village idiot Robbie ‘Imakowski’ who never has asked a hard question in his life that I really started detesting Hurdle. He always tried to embarrass Robbie at postgame pressers.

1979andCounting

Can Bligh hit 99 mph?

1979andCounting

Yes and pull it too. Nice hitting

AdministrativeSky236

Yes he can

AdministrativeSky236

I think it depends on the package, but bednar and probably yerry are the only two I would rather hold onto/ have an opinion about

hoffmark83

As we all know, Shelton sucks as a Manager. Only problem is a REAL manager wouldn’t want to come to manage this pathetic of an organization where the owner and GM don’t give you any chance of winning

Jeff

Hopefully Shelton is Huntington’s Russell.
gone after 3 years.

skliesen

DS leaves an IF to play RF in bottom of 8th in tie game so he can PH for him in 9th.

Seriously?!!!

What the flying F*%# is he thinking?

AdministrativeSky236

I was not early on the shelton hate train, but i am jumping aboard has him just not being it at all

PirateRican21

In his first year I was on full hate, and I hardly ever noticed managers, always think they are good or bad depending on the players since I feel they all know the basics, but what I saw in 2020!!!!

Mblee24

What is the obsession with making relievers go 2 innings. It’s maddening, it’s all scripted and they can’t adjust off the script.

ArkyWags

People used to get mad if guys only went one inning! But yeah, it seems like there is no deviation from the plan if a guy doesn’t have his stuff. I get that relievers are creatures of habit and like the idea of starting with a clean inning. But that isn’t always realistic in game situations.

Mblee24

I’m okay with them going 2 innings but they don’t have to. And they have been really faltering in the 2nd inning as of late.

PirateRican21

Remember the using of Miguel Del Pozo over and over in 2020. It seems that a game plan is drawn and he is unable to adjust.

Last edited 1 month ago by PirateRican21
Wilbur Miller

Actually, Del Pozo is scheduled to pitch the fifth and sixth innings for the Pirates on 8/9/22. You have to plan these things.

skliesen

As soon as the Ump didn’t call strike 3, I knew it wasn’t going to end well for Crowe.

Shelton should’ve put in a lefty after they inserted the LH PH. He’s so clueless on using his bullpen.

Wilbur Miller

B-b-b-but Crowe was scheduled for two innings! We have to stick to the schedule, regardless of the cost!

AdministrativeSky236

Cam has looked good too!

PirateRican21

Us simpleton are able to figure that out, but the idiot we have in the bench…. What’s gonna happen when he has one less reliever to use????

Last edited 1 month ago by PirateRican21
AdministrativeSky236

That ball was smoked, do yinz think a real OF catches it though?

1979andCounting

Castillo took a good route, straight to the ball, back to the IF and turned over the correct shoulder. Got no problems with that. He might have been playing a step or two in for a possible play at the plate. But that was a tough ball, not sure anybody gets to it.

PiratePrimate

C’mon, he was lost on the warning track when it dropped three feet from him. He got there before the ball and didn’t realize it.

1979andCounting

I’ve watched it 6 times. He played it well. He couldn’t quite get there in time.

PiratePrimate

And he isn’t staggering on the track, looking for the ball? If not then I must have not seen it correctly

Last edited 1 month ago by PiratePrimate
PiratePrimate

It’s not a tough play to catch that ball! A good outfielder just turns and goes back on it. It was hit hard but it was hit high and landed on the warning track!!! It’s not like it bounced off the wall.

Last edited 1 month ago by PiratePrimate
AdministrativeSky236

That’s what i was worried about

ArkyWags

If that was ever an example of an infielder playing outfield…

chappy

It’s going to be awhile before we are good…

mikeschalke

When you say awhile do you mean never.

skliesen

Can’t see Pirates ever being good under Shelton.

mikeschalke

i was being sarcastic!

PiratePrimate

The Baseball Gods just told Cherington, “You want to play an infielder in RF? O.K., watch this.”

PirateRican21

I might be wrong, but I’ve seen managers do defensive replacements late in close games, but I guess Shelton hasn’t read that page.

PirateRican21

Would’ve love Veaux here, but will see.

jon6er

We saw!

PirateRican21

After he lost Hernandez, he should’ve brought in the lefty. And why is Castillo still in RF? He is a bad manager, one of the worse I’ve seen.

PirateRican21

Elementary! Shelton sucks.

PirateRican21

Last seven pitches, change ups!

AdministrativeSky236

Thats one of the first differences i noticed this year, he has really ‘changed’ it up lol ok ill show myself out

AdministrativeSky236

Just looked it up and we are 17th in homers this year, which is not nearly as atrocious as the rest of our offensive numbers. Would wager that our solo shot percentage is probably the highest in the league. Just something random that crossed my mind

jon6er

Readers want to know the answers, is it they are not clutch hitters or the bases are always empty, lol.

AdministrativeSky236

Not sure what it actually says about out hitting though… bad in the clutch or just bad timing? I dunno but those two plus diego and vogey are probably all in line for maybe getting to 20 this year, heck even chavis might have a shot but our offense is still in the dumps

mikeschalke

Because we SUCK!!!

roibert.kasperski

Rubbed a little jalapeño on his nose and putting snot on the ball. Learned that Eddie Harris 😁😁

PiratePrimate

Relax, Jake, it’s Piratetown.

1979andCounting

Yep it was another “scheduled” 2 innings despite going way beyond 30 pitches.

roibert.kasperski

Fletch time!

roibert.kasperski

🤣🤣🤣

PirateRican21

I know no Bednar, but please let’s see Crowe for one. They have proven over and over that two is too much, especially in close games. Up by 3+ sure, save the pen.

Last edited 1 month ago by PirateRican21
jon6er

I agree 100% percent but you know he’s coming back out.

PirateRican21

roibert.kasperski

No Bednar soooooo

roibert.kasperski

Happy Crowe Day Y’all!!!

![]comment image)_

jon6er

You always show up for work, almost 😃

roibert.kasperski

Was posting as he pitching to his first batter 😁😁

jon6er

My apologies kind sir….

1979andCounting

Oh no, here we go with a 5th bullpen game in a row with tie or lead.

Last edited 1 month ago by 1979andCounting
AdministrativeSky236

A large proportion of diego’s hits are bombs, if both he and jack could raise their average/obp then they could be well above average big leaguers

Catch_22

He’s certainly becoming more and more intriguing. Dude has some pop

hoffmark83

And a decent glove too

PiratePrimate

Give them both another 500 AB’s and they will be

PiratePrimate

Diego stays in the picture!

PirateRican21

Lefty killer! Great bench piece!

Last edited 1 month ago by PirateRican21
AdministrativeSky236

Newman with more offensive upside! Need those players too

roibert.kasperski

BOOM!!!

jon6er

I’m happy Diego caught both of those but we all know how close they were to being disasters, lol.

1979andCounting

Diego!!! Having himself a night (and past 2 weeks)

jon6er

He’s fun to watch with his enthusiasm and I loved the interaction between him and Madris after Diego’s first catch in right.

JimEastTennessee

AdministrativeSky236

Bad 3-0 swing choice for hayes imo

jon6er

Thinking the same thing. Makes me wonder does he have the the green light on his own or did they give him the green light.

1979andCounting

Ditto on 1-0 pitch to Cruz. Jammed him.

AdministrativeSky236

Eh wasnt hit great but still 104, i think his swing choices in general could use a lot of work

JimEastTennessee

they’re going to keep jamming him until he moves off the plate a tad.

b mcferren

two years $25million contract extension for Cantina!

who says no?

AdministrativeSky236

Ideally a little lower AAV but significant performance bonuses, maybe throw in a sneaky mutual option

JimEastTennessee

And THAT route is why you play OFs in the OF.

1979andCounting

Just our luck he’s dealing tonite.

jon6er

You have to remember that Shelton and Haines are smarter than everyone else so they have the hitters using their game plan against Corbin, lol.

1979andCounting

Cruz is swinging out of his shoes against a tough LH when he should be taking a contact approach with 2 runners on.

jon6er

Why is he batting third against a ‘tough LH’ anyway.

1979andCounting

Let’s ask BNP, what are his splits Jeff?

jon6er

I know he looks generally uncomfortable against LH breaking pitches, lol.

PiratePrimate

We used to say, “He’s trying to kill the ball rather than kill the pitcher.”

Wilbur Miller

If you can find anybody in this org who takes a contact approach ever, let us know.

JimEastTennessee

Chavis!

patrick_kelly

Bae, Park, Newman (squinting at this one). We went through the contact oriented approach for years under NH. Don’t want that to come back into fashion.

1979andCounting

Gamel’s a good example, he goes opposite field nicely vs LHers. Cruz is trying to hit a HR and 115 EV every swing.

jon6er

That’s an easy pick if you ain’t flinching, lol.

JimEastTennessee

I would have the largest flipping 1st sack glove EVER if I was catching that ball  😥 

PiratePrimate

That top of the first is a good example of why I wonder what goes through Shelton’s head in making out a lineup. You got Jack Suwinski with 12 HR’s and you bat him 7th and you hit a guy who’s just come off the IL and is 1-16 against LHers and you bat him 5th? Uh?

Wilbur Miller

I find these lineups alarming in a slightly different way. I got increasingly disturbed at NH’s affinity for mediocrities like Moran (who got outrighted today) because, on a team like the Pirates, anybody who vaguely resembles a major leaguer gets treated, by the Pirates and by the local mediots, like a core player.

We’re seeing that now with Chavis, Vogelbach and Gamel. On a serious ML team, they’re bench guys. On the Pirates, they get treated like legit 3-4-5 hitters, which they aren’t even remotely. It’s easy to mistake them for that due to the subterranean bar set by the many guys GMBS has brought in who aren’t even decent AAA players.

PiratePrimate

If it’s a true rebuild then a mediocre vet never bats ahead of a rookie, if only because of the number of AB’s they accrue if they’re higher in the order. Vogelbach, Chavis, Gamel and your favorite when he comes back, Tsutsugo, can get their licks at the bottom of the order.

Last edited 1 month ago by PiratePrimate
JimEastTennessee

Someone needs to tell Cruz to back off 4 inches more from the plate.

b mcferren

lets go bucs!!!

PiratePrimate

The best reflection of the respect the Pirates garner is that Vegas has made them a +115 underdog against Patrick Corbin, a 3-10 LH w/ a 6.60!!!! ERA. Now that’s a lack of respect.

Wilbur Miller

Didn’t Corbin just waltz thru them last series? He’s the type of pitcher they’re helpless against; he has two eyes and a nose.

PiratePrimate

And he dominates the 3-4-5 hitters, who just happen to be a pair of AAA bats and a RH bench bat on a mediocre club. The Red Sox made it clear Chavis wasn’t a bench bat on a good club.

patrick_kelly

I think we’ve been watching different games if you think Chavis is one of the teams issues.

Last edited 1 month ago by patrick_kelly
PiratePrimate

I implied that Chavis was a bench bat on a mediocre team

hoffmark83

Every player in this organization is a bench bat on a mediocre team

AdministrativeSky236

what

PiratePrimate

Gotta get Diego Castillo a few innings in LF and CF and then behind the plate and he might be the first rookie in MLB history to play all nine positions in his first year. Only on the Pirates.

Last edited 1 month ago by PiratePrimate
jon6er

Shelton has to get his ‘Srod’ in the game as DH against the lefty Corbin while sacrificing defense in RF at the expense of Quintana. If he was truly tanking he would have Chang as the DH and if the intention is to showcase VanMeter for a trade then Shelton is as bad at this as I thought.

Wilbur Miller

I wish one of the beat writers would ask Ben or Derry, “If you can’t start Chang against LHPs on a team with so few RH hitters, why is he on the roster?”

jon6er

The fact they aren’t held accountable by the press is why they continue to give fans the finger while acting like no one but them understand the basic process of running a baseball team that loses every year.

RAS TN

No Bednar no Bueno…oh well, the march to a hundred continues…

PirateRican21

What did I miss?

roibert.kasperski

Did some checking and see where he has a sore back. Must have slipped on the stuff that JR/BNP dropped instead of the Tuesday articles and pulled something in his back.

Wilbur Miller

Well, Stratton should be unavailable today, so it evens out.

jon6er

Stratton should be unavailable everyday.

PirateRican21

Thanks! And I think you might on to something……

jon6er

Wow, an infielder in the outfield again and VanMetal the hit guru at dh.

AdministrativeSky236

Figured we would get chang with a LHP so i guess this is a win

AdministrativeSky236

Mackey reporting that fletcher is in pittsburgh, vieux going back down or yajure?

jon6er

Yajure would make the most sense but with that being said Vieux was competent in his appearances so yeah, good times.

PirateRican21

Competent and then in the closet. 4 close games in a row and DS think is better to use the same relievers and some for two innings.

roibert.kasperski

DIng Ding! Ding! We have a winner. According to Mackey, Yahure. Maybe that means Thompson is not that far off.

jon6er

Then finally they’ll have someone to look Cruz straight in the eye😁

AdministrativeSky236

Roster moves that make sense, woot!

RAS TN

Here’s hoping it’s Chevy Chase…

roibert.kasperski

Well, when @AdministrativeSky236 said “In Pittsaburgh” Thought maybe he went to the Burgh for his parting gifts. However, I think Mackey meant in DC not Pittsburgh.
That said, Maybe he will get his last hurrah before he gets the Sulser treatment (

AdministrativeSky236

Oop! I guess I just decided wherever the bucs are is pittsburgh for the day lol

PiratePrimate

What are the chances we never have to see Kevin Newman take an AB in a Pirates uniform again?

PiratePrimate

Oh, he’ll be that premium RH bat we’ve needed off the bench. That has to be it. They have enough young talent to fill their infield utility needs and Castillo, Marcano, et al need the experience so Newman will be that big bat waiting for his 8th or 9th inning chance. Yeah, that’ll work.

patrick_kelly

Depends on what Newman comes back. Is it the guy that has one of the best chances of at least hitting a single to keep the inning going or the Newman that can’t hit air.

AdministrativeSky236

I just decided that when kevin newman is healthy, he will come up for a week or two then be sent to the angels for one of the 20 pitchers they picked in last years draft. Diego will probably have to go back down and be back up by august

AdministrativeSky236

Maybe ben gamel to the phillies now that harper is hurt, would help their defense by letting schwarber or castellanos go back to DH as well

Danatural08

they lost to the Nats yesterday, wtf

PirateRican21

Where’s the Tuesday drop?

Tim Williams

It’s delayed until Thursday. More info in P2Daily.

roibert.kasperski

This is Mr.Reed….. He was put in charge of the drop today and he took it a little too literal……..

Last edited 1 month ago by roibert.kasperski
Tim Williams

Catch_22

Classic Kevin!

AdministrativeSky236

Was thinking the same!

NMR

AdministrativeSky236

Was just catching up on comments from all of the smart and thoughtful people here, and quenched my thirst for a bit at least

roibert.kasperski

On behalf of all the other smart and thoughtful people here, I tip my hat to you 🙂

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