Pirates Discussion: Off Day and Looming Deadline

The Pittsburgh Pirates go into an off day riding a seven game losing streak.

JT Brubaker appeared to have settled things down after the Philadelphia Phillies scored two runs in the top of the first, but then they broke through in the fifth inning for five more runs.

During their 1-8 skid, the Pirates have only managed to score more than two runs only twice. In three of the nine games they were only able to push across one run.

Cal Mitchell continued his recent hot stretch by going two for four and collecting his 12th RBI. Cal only needs 11 more at-bats before he graduates off of prospect lists.

Then speaking of hot streaks, Kevin Newman in his last seven games has gone 11 for 30 with a slash of 367/406/600. Since returning on July 8th he is carrying a line of 315/359/452 for the month of July, complete with eight doubles and a triple. The good news is that his hard hit % and average launch angle is up. The bad news is that his average exit velocity has still been well below average and he’s striking out more. Newman striking out more though is still a very respectable 20%.

I’m honestly starting to not expect much this deadline. It’s been a lot of all bark and no bite. The customary “Front offices and execs are telling me this is going to be the wildest deadline EVER” tweets are starting to come out from insiders. They are yearly now to the equivalent of all the “Best shape of his life” articles that flood the news every spring training.

This is our first expanded playoffs deadline. The questions I had coming into this deadline were whether more teams with a possibility of playoffs would drive up prices, or if teams would be more likely to remain with their existing roster. With some of the rumors coming out it’s actually seemed like teams on the fringe are more willing to deal from their roster. Baltimore, Boston, and San Francisco are all teams within four games of the Wild Card but have been mentioned as willing to part with key pieces. “Buyers and Sellers” seems to be this deadline’s most oft used phrase.

I think we’ll mostly be waiting on roster moves that Ben Cherington claimed are imminent after the deadline.

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AdministrativeSky236

Johan oviedo and malcom nunez for Q

Wilbur Miller

Apparently Q is headed to StL.

AdministrativeSky236

For realz?

b mcferren

for Matthew Liberatore?

1979andCounting

Q will get moved. I like Ben holding his cards til the last day. Although I’m probably giving him way too much credit as a negotiator…..

slider1971

The returns some of these NL central teams are getting is a little depressing to see from the Pirates perspectives

The Reds not only got huge upside for Castillo but also two of the four that are very close to the Majors.
The Brewers then replace their closer with an equally impressive closer along with Lamet, who was in the cY Young conversation two years ago and is still young with huge upside. And then they throw in two top ten prospects.

Cubs get a young mid rotation piece for a reliever that was having a good year Burt came out of nowhere.

ironmike56

We should package with Q or Bednar with one of our glut of middle infield prospects to get a power bat and competent fielding first base prospect.

I would dangle Gonzales, Marcano and Castro. I believe we should keep Cruz, Peguero, Bae, and Castillo.

robertkasperski

Just home from work and still nuthin……..
C’mon Ben…….
It’s an off day………

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Last edited 2 months ago by robertkasperski
Cobra

It’s prom week and dates like us need to realize we are no one’s first pick

robertkasperski

not even rumors of rumors…….

MaraudingBucs

Pirates signed Julian Bosnic, 14th Rd pick. Guess he changed his mind?

AdministrativeSky236

Bleacher Report (I know a bottom tier source, but I am scraping the bottom for info here) proposed we send Q and gamel to atlanta for jesse franklin V and victor vodnik. A quick look at pipeline would make me very happy with that swap

robertkasperski

Me at work during the draft or trade deadline…………………….

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john_fluharty

Careful you’re not too busy to read the screen when something does happen lol

robertkasperski

Alert notifications 🙂

hoffmark83

Settle down Beavis! Deadline is tomorrow not today. We still have 24hrs. to go before the Pirates trade for Joe Bagofdonuts!

robertkasperski

When Cameron was in Egypt’s land… let my Cameron go!

joesolo6181

trading established major league players for prospects is very tricky. I can only assume that the team that gets the proven major league player is always the winner of any trade. What did the Pirates get for Cole? A bag of balls and a broken bat would have been better than what they received. They should have demanded Tucker from the Astros but took Moran instead. So be careful for what you wish for, because the Pirates might not get anything of value by trading Bednar, Q or anyone else.

ArkyWags

How about Bryan Reynolds? Traded this guy named Andrew McCutchen for him and it turned out ok.

Last edited 2 months ago by ArkyWags
AdministrativeSky236

Uh they did get that joe musgrove guy that was pretty alright in the cole trade

TNBucs

You probably saw that Musgrove just got a $100MM/5-year extension from the Padres. Happy for him; what might have been for us (sigh).

robertkasperski

Joe begat Bednar, Endy, and the jury still out on Head. Not bad return for a guy that was never going to extend with anyone the Pirates traded to. That probably entered into the decision for the Astros to refuse Tucker.

AdministrativeSky236

These are the moves we will consistently need to do and hit more often than not if we are to emulate a team like the rays, though they will never be popular lol

robertkasperski

The Cards operate the same way. They do not tend to overpay. The league is littered with former Cards players that they traded as soon as they had a couple of options to fill the spots from the minors. They usually get prospects back to refill what positions had been promoted. You have to keep as full of a system as you can in order to pull it off.

RAS TN

Padres To Acquire Josh HaderBy Steve Adams | August 1, 2022 at 12:22pm CDT
In a stunning blockbuster, the Padres have agreed to acquire All-Star closer Josh Hader from the Brewers, reports Jeff Passan of ESPN (Twitter link). The Athletic’s Ken Rosenthal reported just minutes ago that the Brewers were closing in on a Hader deal.
The Padres are sending their own closer, Taylor Rogers, to Milwaukee back in the deal, Passan further tweets. Milwaukee will also acquire righty Dinelson Lamet, pitching prospect Robert Gasser and outfield prospect Esteury Ruiz.

AdministrativeSky236

Good return for the brewers for just a few months of hader imo

skliesen

A few months and next year.

TNBucs

He has another year of control but still it seems like a very good trade for the Brewers–they can move Williams to closer (Williams has been better than Hader this year anyway) with Rogers taking over for Williams and then they get a lot of upside with the prospects. I almost always like Brewers’ moves and this fits that.

AdministrativeSky236

Oops good call I missed that he has another year, but I agree still fits!

NMR

Wow!

b mcferren

what a rip off

robertkasperski

Would you trade Bednar for a Wesneski right now? What more would you have asked from the Yanks to move Bednar now?

Last edited 2 months ago by robertkasperski
AdministrativeSky236

That feels like a very solid return for effross imo

bucsws2014

Looks like a steal for Cubs imho.

ArkyWags

A steal? Nope. About right on the return it feels. Good for both teams.

bucsws2014

We’re gonna disagree on that. Wesneski can plug right into the rotation and will benefit from half his starts at Wrigley. Efross is a garden variety middle reliever away from Wrigley. And not particularly good at preventing inherited runners from scoring. Check back in Sept and let’s evaluate again.

Last edited 2 months ago by bucsws2014
ArkyWags

So only a month to re evaluate? Sounds ambitious. Wesneski’s write up per FG (where he’s 16th on the Cubs list, 19th in the Yankees write up and a 40+) makes him sound like what he is: an intriguing arm who may be trending up a bit. His numbers are good at AAA, but not absurdly so.

The home/road splits don’t mean that much. Since the start of June, he’s made ten appearances on the road and allowed an earned run in two outings. If he can help them get some big outs in October, they won’t regret giving up Wesneski at all.

bucsws2014

Two months. Plus postseason.

Todd

Lets face it, the only thing they can get are lottery tickets for any of the junk still on the roster. Quintana might bring a AA minor league talent; perhaps Newman can bring in something. Since there will be a Rule 5 crunch in November there is a chance of a package that includes someone they may lose. Release everyone else & get the kids here!

Wilbur Miller

Dumbo on the deadline:

“We’re not going to shake it (the roster) up just because we haven’t won games.”

They really, truly don’t give a shit.

PiratePrimate

We’re not gonna shake it up because for what it costs, it’s a damn fine roster. And if you don’t agree that’s it’s sufficient then you’re looking at it from a quality standpoint rather than a bottom line standpoint. And from where Nickles and his subordinates stand, that’s a roster that doesn’t need shaking up just because it stinks. Nickles loves this team. But he’d like a cheaper one next year.

piratemike

Just having a franchise in MLB guarantees BN will make money without spending any. So why spend. Let them eat cake.

b mcferren

I don’t think BC is looking at the major league roster hardly at all until next year

and that Shelton is making all these crappy gomer decisions

Wilbur Miller

“I don’t think BC is looking at the major league roster hardly at all”

Hard to look at something that doesn’t exist.

b mcferren

is it not possible that BC put loser Shelton there on purpose so that BC can ensure the big league club stays in last place until the calvary is ready?

Last edited 2 months ago by b mcferren
b mcferren

which one is dumbo?

John Russell is a placeholder until Kendall is ready to be the manager

piratemike

You can have a Rolls- Royce but if it doesn’t have a motor, it’s not going anywhere.

b mcferren

disagree – motor is there fine – your metaphor improves when you say that they’re putting unleaded into the rolls royce instead of premium

ricramer

Mr. Cruz is no longer an official prospect.

PiratePrimate

Which makes him an exciting, struggling young player with power who has no plate discipline, a powerful but inconsistent arm and real problems with off speed stuff.

john_fluharty

Maybe it’s just my imagination, but he doesn’t seem to be striking out as much lately.

robertkasperski

This is all Oneil needs…………….

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NMR

Oneil makes Pedro Alvarez look like Juan Soto.

piratemike

Talk about chairs on the Titanic! Some of the Pirates players could contribute to a team that surrounds them with good players but with the Pirates they are surrounded with no supporting cast so anything they bring is tamped down.
So even if the Pirates trade them what do they get in return … more mediocrity.
A team with some mediocre players surrounded by poor players.
Combine that with an owner who can’t or won’t spend for quality and year after year the pirates are rostered with the likes of Vanmeter and others. Hopeless.

ironmike56

Is this a plausible scenario today:
Sign Quintana to a club option for 2023 at 4M with an immediate bonus payment of 500K.
Or a firm one year extension at 3 or 4 million with a 1M immediate bonus.
Can this be done under the CBA and would Q consider it. The idea is it makes him a more valuable asset to keep on our roster or on the trade market to those seeking a starter. Would it substantially increase the quality of prospects in a trade…..?

Last edited 2 months ago by ironmike56
hoptown

There is no chance he signs a 1-year extension. If he finishes the season decently I expect him to get like 3 yrs and $24-36M.

AdministrativeSky236

I would agree that 8-12m per year feels like probably what it would take. I may be wrong, but if he could be had for just 3-4m i feel like we would have done that already

SouthernBuc

My opinion is that Tyler Anderson got 8M last year and Q’s year has been better so he would be looking for at least that amount. The Q that signed for 2M was looking for anybody who would let him start, hats off to him for performing. Having said that, to reference my post from a few days ago, I am not nearly as excited about extending him. He could easily become 2021 Q which was not very good. I still believe the best path is to trade him which adds something to the team, wish him well, and then evaluate him like other options in the off season. If Pittsburgh has the best or most compelling offer he will sign IMO, but if they don’t he won’t (regardless of any good relationship built in Pgh).

robertkasperski

Hew may resign but I don’t think he extends before he sees what the market bears first. Trade Him!!!

b mcferren

I didn’t either until I saw his home/road splits from that article the other day

I think he knows that to extend his career, PNC is a very friendly place for him

Cobra

Looking at off-season, am I wrong or:

Ben made bad bets on Hembree, Yoshi, Van Meter, Marsinick, Heineman, Knapp and Allen.

Ben made good bets on Quintana, DeJong, R.Perez & Vogey.

Hindsight 20/20 but if we made another positive 1 year signing instead of wasting about $8 million on the combination of Yoshi/Van Meter/Allen/Heineman/Hembree , we’d be looking at a much more exciting trade deadline

Born4rf

Keep in mind that the highest paid player that you mentioned, Yoshi, has been the biggest disappointment. When you’re thrashing around the bargain bin quantity and luck are the most important things

Last edited 2 months ago by Born4rf
robertkasperski

Marisnick and Heinman were brought in after the season started due to circumstances after the season had begun.

omarvelous

I agree that it would have been nicer to see the club invest in a proven guy or two that would have been more marketable at this stage in the season, but those signings are gambles too. Lord help us if we’d signed Conforto only to see him get hurt and be untradable on an otherwise meager payroll.

bucsws2014

I look at Heineman as I would Chris Stewart. Zero pop, but solid catching skills. An adequate backup C for a youngish staff, If no Heineman, we’d still have M. Perez or Knapp. That’s worse.

I’d even say Marisnick wasn’t a whiff, but was redundant. Ostensibly, Bucs already had their 4th OF in Gamel, but that was figuring Swags would play, and Alford and Tucker would’ve been contributors. None of that happened. And then Mitchell was awful first go-round, Marcano fell off, and Castillo was often lost out there. So Marisnick got ABs by default. He’s a better player than what he showed in April.

VanMeter was just a waste of space. Yoshi was a 2021 flash in the pan.

JimEastTennessee

Maris (too bad he can’t hit like Roger), Heineman, Allen were all decent pieces, ZootSuit was a disappointment, but I was glad they signed him.

2024 or bust

leefieux

As I wrote on the Daily: After the meager return for Tyler Anderson last year, I am not expecting much of a haul for Q. In fact, if the best we can do is a wild FSL pitcher and a backup catcher, then I’d just keep Q.

robertkasperski

I would agree if Q were signed for next season by the Bucs. Keeping him now when he will be entering FA anyway seems like a move that will not net the Bucs anything. Keeping him will not help them sign Q in the off season in my opinion.

1979andCounting

Tejada looks to have good stats in the FSL and he’s only 19. I think Q is more valuable than Anderson, so we should net something closer to the show……rumors are Blue Jays, White Sox. Always helps to have 2 -3 teams in a bidding war.

leefieux

He’s in the FSL. Let me know when he has good stats in AA and AAA.

SouthernBuc

I’ve always debated the adding a prospect to a trade (likely with myself) to get a better prospect but it seems like it just about never happens. With the Pirates depth in the minors, I would think adding a player or two to a trade would be a viable way to get a better prospect (no matter what level they may be).

bscat

and there’s certain to be a rule 5 crunch

NMR

Found this interesting:

Despite the numbers here in Pittsburgh, it might be more likely that the Pirates leave room on their 40-man so they can add Rule 5 guys, since at worst they’re likely to break even in the unlikely event that one or two of their guys gets popped.”

https://blogs.fangraphs.com/examining-the-national-leagues-2022-40-man-crunch/

bucsws2014

All the FAs will be gone. 2-3 of the guys on 60-day won’t be missed and Perez is also an FA. At least 4 of the “fringe” vets will be released. That allows room for the 5 “must-adds” plus 1-2 others. And honestly, that’s not even a deep cut – Bucs could shed more mediocrity than that without breaking a sweat.

TNBucs

Fangraphs listed the Pirates as one of five NL teams facing a Rule 5 crunch though when you read the write-up, it doesn’t sound like it’s that much of a “crunch” or at least that they’re not at much risk of losing someone without gaining someone who is comparable:

https://blogs.fangraphs.com/examining-the-national-leagues-2022-40-man-crunch/

hoffmark83

Finally, someone talking sense of the rule 5. Everyone seems to think we will lose everyone that is rule 5 eligible.

leefieux

Well, as it turns out, losing Martin in the Rule V wouldn’t have been a great loss.

omarvelous

I do think we’re going to see a number of big deals in the next couple of days — but the Pirates will be a footnote to Contreras, Bell, Happ, etc.

The more interesting question is whether the Bucs will jettison VanMeter and Tsutsugo, non-prospect assets that don’t even qualify as consolation prizes for any contenders.

AdministrativeSky236

I really hope this is the truth

JimEastTennessee

Jeff, I might just throw the biggest conniption fit EVER if JVM is still here 8/4/2022.
  :wpds_mad: 

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