Pirates Discussion: Winter Meetings Wrap-Up

The Winter Meetings seemed like it could have been an exciting week for the Pittsburgh Pirates. Instead, it left their fans with probably more angst.

This will honestly be a complete 180 from last week’s positive outlook article.

Things kicked off the Saturday just before meetings began with Bryan Reynolds requesting a trade. As would be expected, this lead to a whirlwind of rumors and potential suitors, as has become the norm during all big trading periods, like the winter meetings and trade deadline. It didn’t appear as there were any out of the ordinary talks during the meetings.

From Sunday through to the Rule 5 draft, there really weren’t a lot of talk or rumors surrounding the Pirates. Kyle Gibson had been linked to them before last weekend, but he was in agreement with the Baltimore Orioles before meetings even began.

With most of the big ticket names on the market still available, a lot of the news surrounded where “Arson” Judge or one of the many shortstops were going to sign. Mid-level name after mid-level name slowly began to sign deals. Mike Clevinger agreed with the Chicago White Sox on a one year $8M deal that included a $12M option with a $4M buyout for 2024, receiving $12M guaranteed. Rather shortly after inking Jacob deGrom to a massive contract, the Texas Rangers signed Andrew Heaney to a two year deal for $25M with incentives that could bring it to $37M. Jose Quintana joined the New York Mets for two years and $26M.

Tuesday is when the Pirates made their biggest “splash” bringing in two veteran arms. First they finally added a left-hander to the 40-man, Jarlin Garcia. This was an overall positive sign as it checks two boxes: bullpen and LHP. The Pirates later in the day came to terms with free agent pitcher Vince Velasquez. Time will tell whether they view Velasquez as a rotation piece or bullpen addition, but ultimately it is more of a shoulder-shrug signing.

The biggest news of the week came Tuesday evening when the Pirates walked away from the inaugural Draft Lottery with the 2023 MLB Draft first overall pick. As it stands, the Pirates are going to have a very quality group to choose from at the top of the draft. A lot will change from now till the draft, but there is probably a good 5-6 players in the running (not counting any potential dark-horses like Jackson Holliday who jumped in previous draft). This also means they will have a larger bonus pool — Ethan’s update as of December 8th — to work with.

Wednesday rolled around and brought about what has become Pirates fan’s favorite topic to argue: the Rule 5 draft. With the third selection, the Pirates ended up adding another LHP to their bullpen, selecting Los Angeles Dodgers reliever Jose Hernandez.

With the very next selection, the Cincinnati Reds selected, this is going to be tough for me to write, Blake Sabol. Fortunately he was quickly flipped to the San Francisco Giants which lessens the blow of possibly having Blake raking against the Pirates in Great American Ball Park.

I’m sad, but I’m happy for Sabol. I’ve enjoyed watching him grow from a very raw looking centerfielder for the West Virginia Black Bears, to debuting in Bradenton out of extended Spring Training where the ball exploded off his bat, to a top five hitter in the Double-A Eastern League among OPS. I’d like to see him come back, but I hope he succeeds in San Francisco.

The minor league phase of the Rule 5 draft is where things got crazy. The Pirates added two players while losing eleven. Tim Williams and John Dreker broke down all of the players gained and lost throughout the entire Rule 5 draft.

In total, it was a rather quiet week for the Pirates. That in itself is what has become the bulk of my personal angst. Ben Cherington says, “We want to continue to add.”, and going as far as saying they have the financial flexibility to add “if we wanted to or the right matches lined up.” But where are moves that show that is the case? Where is the transparency that they claim to covet?

There does seem to be a trend of players signing closer to home with Heaney going to Texas — he’s from Oklahoma — and Trea Turner to Philadelphia, whose wife is from New Jersey. That aside, there has been quite a few deals that one would think are within budget of a team who claims to have a desire to add and the “financial flexibility” to do so. Obviously free agents also signed deals to go to clubs they felt would be competitive, but the Pirates’ star player just asked for a trade, and they continue to sit on their hands.

Joe Musgrove signed a VERY team friendly deal this past July to stay in his hometown of San Diego because they’ve continued to show effort, even while being of the league’s smallest markets. Their market is near identical to the Pirates. Why would Reynolds want to sign an extension, even if just for market value, to remain with a club whose front office has been doing the bare minimum, even after voicing their desire to begin flipping the script?

We’re left to often read the tea leaves in trying to determine the organization’s approach. Pirates fans have been waiting for the Pirates to do something, anything, that bucks their usual trends. Over the last few seasons, management hasn’t seemed to be very keen for developing contingencies, or fallback plans. So far this off-season, after kicking things off with some minor intrigue, the Pirates have seemingly settled back into their business as usual.

This is Cherington’s fourth off-season. We’re reaching — or have reached — the point where the fruit’s of their labor should begin presenting itself. If they’re entering another season of struggling with a collection of fringe players/prospects and a litany of consistently existing issues, then what has changed? Bringing in a new front office led many to believe they were going to be more forward thinking, or in the least, catch up to the rest of the league. You could say there’s more potential or promise, as we generally hold a higher value of prospects we’ve personally watched grow. But have the Pirates actually gotten better to this point?

Song of the Day

Yes. I went there.

Raised in Cranberry Twp, PA, Jeff attended Kent State University and worked in Cleveland and Pittsburgh, before moving to New Orleans in September of 2012. His background is as an Engineering Designer, but he has always had a near unhealthy passion for Pittsburgh sports. Hockey and Baseball are his 1A and 1B, combined with his mathematical background, it's led to Jeff's desire in diving into analytics. Jeff is known as Bucs'N'Pucks in the comments, and began writing for Pirates Prospects in 2022 after contributing so many useful bits of information in the comment section.

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Scrappy2499

I think Nimmo showed what it will take to sign Reynolds…6 to 8 years @ 165ish…I am not thinking the Pirates are going to shell out 20 to 25 mil per year to extend/retain him.

Anthony

Not seeing how the Nimmo deal drastically affects Reynolds. Yes they are relatively comparable players, but 6/100 is very fair, especially if front loaded, which Nimmo’s is not. I think your forgetting Reynolds still has three years of control, so his next deal would have two years arb then four years FA.

melkel

A couple weeks ago Reynolds would’ve probably signed 6 or 7 years for 110 to 130 million with the first year front loaded around 20 mil.

Anthony

Still very much in play, and I think your a bit on the high side if your front loading. Reynolds will be a year older than Nimmo when he hits FA. Give him a signing bonus and front load the deal, you’re probably looking at 6/100.

melkel

Yeah that would have worked a few weeks ago, the 6/100. After the winter meetings, with the length of contracts and the AAVs being handed out, I’m assuming Reynolds might have an even larger gap with the front office. I’m also assuming the pirates offer was in the range of 5 to 7 years between $80 and $100 million, with an AAV being somewhere between $11 and $16.6 million. If it was closer to $16 they might be able to come to an agreement, if it was closer to $11, Reynolds is probably done negotiating with them unless they come back with something more substantial.

Anthony

A six year deal technically only has four FA years. You’re basically going 12 arb3, 16 arb4, 20, 20, 20, and 20; that’s “market” or your Nimmo comp and then you discount it to front load the deal.

Your averages include two arb years, that’s why they’re off. The Nimmo comp is straight FA, and if I remember correctly, it’s a basic deal with the same salary each year.

Personally, I don’t mind the AAV; it’s really the seventh year at 35 years old that would make me extremely nervous.

Last edited 1 month ago by Anthony
Scrappy2499

Yeah, do not think he will give a discount at this point.

melkel

Yep, this goes straight on Nickles. I’m starting to think he’s not only cheap but bad at business. Being so risk adverse has already cost attendance at games and it appears he’s starting to get disgruntled employees.

TNBucs

Well expressed Jeff. I’m mildly disappointed with our offseason so far but still hopeful as there is still a lot of time and plenty of good players available. And I’m hoping that we trade some of our prospect depth in a trade where we’re providing the quantity and receiving the quality (a reverse-Musgrove or Taillon trade, for example). Ben may be too risk averse to do that, though.

EightMenOut

The Dodgers need an outfielder (Reynolds) and we need starting pitching, a trade here is starting to make too much sense.

I think the trade simulators have Reynolds value too high, because the simulators really like him because he provides a good bit of WAR for not so much salary for the next three years. But now that he is on record as wanting a fair extension, then the receiving team is not getting as much value as it appears, unless they ignore the extension. Maybe playing for the Dodgers will lessen the desire for an extension on his part, or the Dodgers will be happy to negotiate a fair one.

melkel

The simulator is fairly accurate, it takes a median of his expected value. A team are still only obligated to pay the $6.75 mil and his two arbitration years. For the three years he will be owed somewhere between $31 mil and $37 mil. His is projected around 4 WAR a year, 12 total WAR times 8 equals $96 mil. His trade value is right around $60 mil.

SBRO

I disagree with your thinking. Locking in a player at today’s extension rates rather than waiting for them to reach free agency 3 years from now gives the Dodgers even more excess value in the trade. Less than his next 3 cost-controlled years, certainly, but still a relative bargain vs. waiting to negotiate with him or any similar player 3 years from now. Today’s fair value is tomorrow’s bargain.

EightMenOut

One simulator says that the Dodgers would give us in a fair trade May, Stone and Grove, for Reynolds. Without having seen any of them pitch, just looking at stats and projections, seems like a really good trade for us, not so sure the Dodgers would agree.

melkel

Plus if he is preforming like 2021 it gives whomever controls him a lot more value.

BuccoinTN

A very boring week with exception of the #1 pick. I feel like the rebuild will fall short of my expectation which was .500 in ‘23 and contention in ‘24. I’ll still be watching and hoping they make it. I am 62 but still have a healthy head of hair to pull out.

Last edited 1 month ago by BuccoinTN
bianco599

Pert Plus or Head and Shoulders?

roberto

Objection. The San Diego metro population is almost double that of Pittsburgh. If that’s a small market, I am a monkey’s uncle. And before you go there, note that my niece is a delightful young woman.

TNBucs

It’s really about TV contracts and I have no idea how SD’s compares to ours. You’d think much higher, but then they’re sharing a region with the Dodgers and Angels so maybe it’s not that much higher.

Anthony

Yes and No. It is about local media contracts, but the Padres have ownership interests in their RSN, as well as Petco Field. The latter is something very few, I believe on three or so, teams have in MLB. I would also note that they have unimpeded marketability to their immediate south.

scott_stauffer

Amen, Brother

jaygray007

Predictions…

RH Corner Outfielder is brought in. AJ Pollock seems to me like a good balance of solid and cheap. A handful of other guys would do here. i THINK Cherington has alluded to adding OF.

one C is brought in on MLB deal. the 2nd catcher will be added to the 40 on opening day. Jeffy has said the same thing.

one more SP added. I can’t imagine Vince Velasquez is the starter that he alluded to, but i guess i wouldnt be shocked.

battlingbucs

If they bring in a right handed OF at all (I think they should but unless Reynolds is dealt I don’t think they will) my guess is Tommy Pham. Red Sox turned down a 6 million dollar option so I’m guessing he’lol come fairly cheaply.

jaygray007

assuming a 13 13 mix of P and pos players…

LF Pollock
CF Reynolds
RF Suwinski
3b Hayes
SS Cruz
2b Castro/Bae
1b Choi
DH Santana
C Catcher 1

Bench: Catcher 2, Bae/Castro, Andujar, Castillo?

Pitching:
SP signing, Roansy, Keller, Brubaker, Ortiz

‘pen: Velasquez, bednar, garcia, de jong, underwood, Hernandez, de los santos, holderman

PirateRican21

I just realized that they are gonna need to clear two roster spot for the catchers!

Wilbur Miller

They’ll just bring some guys in on MiL deals to compete with Delay. Cs like that grow on trees. Then Max to 60-day IL.

PirateRican21

Oviedo, I think you left out Oviedo!

jaygray007

AAA SP depth!

1979andCounting

That’s about right positionally, Jay.

Batting Order:

  1. Bae
  2. Pollock
  3. Reynolds
  4. Cruz
  5. Santana
  6. Castro
  7. Choi
  8. Hayes
  9. Catcher
PirateRican21

Didn’t pollock turned down like $10 million from the Sox?

b mcferren

precisely

Cutch will cost $2mil

jaygray007

we’ve also seen the maneuver where bae goes to cf and reynolds slides to LF. They can do this vs some righties.

jaygray007

burrows, thompson, priester, oviedo, as real life actual starting pitching depth ready to go in AAA

Switch Thompson with Ortiz for the #5 spot if youre so inclined.

Last edited 1 month ago by jaygray007
jaygray007

editor’s note. Jose *H*ernandez. not Fernandez.

Tim Williams

Thank you.

bianco599

Man, I am realizing that every time a song of the day is a female from the 90’s I had a crush on them when I was a teenager in the 90’s. Go figure.
I am going to just keep telling myself that the Pirates have the first pick next year anytime I feel angst.

joebaseball

“There does seem to be a trend of players signing closer to home”
OK, if that is true, who are the free agents from our area that might be of interest? Especially pitchers

Mblee24

I have a feeling they don’t trade Reynolds until mid season. So I think the rest of the off-season will look like this:
Sign SP Kluber 2/18M
Sign SP Yarbrough 1/6M
Sign C Barnhart 1/5M
Delay gets added to 40 man after spring training and becomes back up catcher.

DFA – Wilson, De Jong, Underwood
60 Day – Kranick

I think Kluber can be a solid veteran in the rotation and Yarbrough is a cheap lefty with some upside. I could see them flipping yarbrough at the deadline along with Barnhart. Then I think Reynolds gets traded at the deadline.

This not what I would do but I think this is what they will do. It gets them another big name that they think will bring fans in with Kluber. It also addresses another starter and catcher. I think they see what they have with swaggerty, Suwinski, Mitchell, villade, Marcano, CSN, and Andujar in the outfield. Hoping at least two or three stick. Then the infield is just waiting for Gonzales, Davis, and Rodriguez to come up. While trying castro, bae and Castillo at 2nd. My prediction is they will win 68-73 games.

k1rainey

I would actually be pretty fine with all that. I doubt they’ll grab 2 more SP

Mblee24

Yeah I wouldn’t hate it either. But would like them to push for 500. And to sign Reynolds long term.

1979andCounting

Heavy money on Delay!

roberto

Sure, decent defense and relatively inexpensive. Though I have to confess that I have never made $700,000 in a year.

SBRO

The tough part about this is that middle tier of free agents – the kind that BC relied on to supplement the WS champ RedSox, and the kind that would previously have been within the Pirates’ budget – flew off the shelves quickly, and at prices a fair bit above where we might have expected. Most deals exceeded FanGraphs’ crowdsource estimates by 10+% AAV, if not also in years.

I’d like to see 3 more signings:

1) Roberto Perez/Tucker Barnhart behind the plate on a 1-year deal.
2) Sean Manaea, or falling short of that, Stripling/Wacha/Kluber on a low-teens AAV multi-year deal.
3) Kiermaier, Mancini or Gallo on a short-term deal to solidify the OF, which has more quantity than quality.

That’s probably in the neighborhood of $30-$33M added to the payroll for 4-5 extra wins.

1979andCounting

The Winter meetings wrap-up to me is more about other teams and FA signings than it was about the Bucs. Clubs are SOOOO aggressive this offseason. Tells me the players may not have “won” enough during the lockout. Teams are blowing past the luxury tax thresholds….into even higher tax thresholds! The owners (not counting Bob) have money to spend, the economics of MLB are very healthy.

To date Bob and Ben have spent about $11 mil on Santana and Choi, minus the $4 mil on Yoshi for a net increase of $7 mil. Then they added two pitchers this week at $5.7 mil. So they ARE doing something and are up $13 mil and it’s still early December. I like 3 of the 4 signings (excluding Velasquez)…….so let’s reserve judgment ….it’s still very early. The team has gotten better with the 3 signings……..and the Rule 5 pick has a lot of upside too that should be ready for MLB (unlike Rule 5 Oviedo).

Stay positive BNP…….Sabol is likely to come back, just don’t see him sticking w/ Giants for the whole year.

Anthony

It very well could be a strategy to combat wage inflation. What better way to lock in wages at today’s prices than signing someone to a six-, eight-, or ten-year contract. A new market inefficiency that only about one-third to one-half of all teams can really exploit.

Last edited 1 month ago by Anthony
NMR

Looks to me like something triggered a change in competitiveness that now has owners blowing past their self-enforced salary cap while driving more money than before to minors and pre-free agents. And it all came without losing any baseball to a longer, more-drawn out labor dispute.

Take the win, buddy. 😉

1979andCounting

Boras said in interview it’s the expanded playoffs. Makes sense……So yeah, the lockout may have had some positives.

leefieux

That is why it is usually boring to me. When the highlight is the Rule V draft, then ya know it is boring.

Watching other teams get these expensive free agents just depresses me, so I don’t care much about them. All it does is drive another nail into what is already an almost sealed coffin. We have to have EVERYTHING go right at the same time to make a run. And that window is shrinking with every large free agent signing. We have next to no hope of ever having anyone sign a ‘second’ deal with us, unless they suck. We have to trade them away and hope that the prospects we get back are legit.

I picked a bad week to give up recreational drugs.

Last edited 1 month ago by leefieux
RAS TN

You are correct if the Pirates will ever have what is called a window of opportunity it will be very short-lived, maybe 1 or 2 years out of every 10.

What’s even more depressing as time passes those opportunities will become non-existent, so enjoy what you have in front of you and hope the rookies jell this coming year or next…

NMR

Nah, that’s only of their choice.

The Brewers are the model moving forward. No disastrously-long rebuilds, just continual roster churn and retooling.

leefieux

The Brewers, gasp, actually spend money!!

Anthony

The Brewers have also consistently averaged between 30k and 35k in attendance per game; that helps a lot especially in down years.

leefieux

True. But, do I remember reading that attendance doesn’t have as much to do with revenue as TV contracts? Which is why boycotting games never made sense.

Anthony

It has just as much to do with local TV contracts bc the Pirates get to keep 52% of all those combined revenues. The remaining 48% is the revenue sharing component that gets pooled, then distributed equally to all 30 teams.

The argument for local TV contracts is that the money is guaranteed, where attendance obviously is not. Then the narrative becomes, the Pirates make $45M in local TV media revenue before they even sell a ticket. Technically, they keep only 52% of this money along with all gate receipts, sponsorship, merchandise, etc. As revenue sharing recipients though, they get back more money than they pay.

Regardless, attendance matters, and it matters more for the smaller revenue teams bc it is one of the only ways to substantially increase revenues with minimal game-day expense offsets. Not to mention, low attendance adversely impacts the SEA and the city, which has become a self-fulfilling prophecy for all the BN/Pirates haters.

Quick maths, 10k more attendance per game @ $200 per family of four which includes concessions and merchandise, equals an additional $40.5M per year. Not chump change here, almost the same take home as their local TV deal.

leefieux

Good stuff, Anthony. Thx!

john_fluharty

I think our window of opportunity has been painted shut.

1979andCounting

It’s easy for us to be moaning “woe is we” but when you step out and look around, heard the Reds GM interviewed in S.D. OMG he was talking about shoring up their back-up catcher with Luke Maille and what a big box he had checked off…..LOL. I mean they’ve done almost nothing so far, other than adding Kevin Newman!

Anthony

If I remember correctly, they went with the quality over quantity approach when purging their roster.

1979andCounting

That one year and done splurge sure was strange…….and he got away cheap with a 60-game season. But yeah, I’d take even one year of Bob spending like the Reds did in 2020.

leefieux

Well, their owner is nothing to write home about either. I think he makes even Nutting look good by comparison.

leefieux

As I’ve said before. Most MLB teams get to shop at real stores. We have to shop at Flea Markets and Yard Sales. Even Walmart is too expensive for Nutsacks.

Wilbur Miller

The grinding, numbing reality of a Pirate offseason is knowing that they exclusively shop at the absolute bottom of the market, strictly for the guys no one else wants.
Look at this fall. Choi was strictly a salary dump for TB. All they got was a struggling class A reliever. If anybody else had any interest, would that have been a tough offer to beat? Do we seriously think any other team wanted a 38-yr-old 1B/DH, coming off three poor seasons, as an everyday player? Do we think anybody else was interested in an 8-year veteran who’s never had an ERA under 4.12, who’s gotten worse the last several years, and whose Statcast data throughout his career looks like a batting practice pitcher? Even Garcia saw his stuff take a significant downturn in 2022.
Yeah, they sound slightly different now. BC has some new words. Apparently he looked up “win” after his session with the disgruntled season ticket holders. New actions? No evidence yet.

leefieux

Geez…you make me look optimistic. 😅😅😅

john_fluharty

I picture Wilbur as being one of those ‘get off my lawn’ old guys 🙂

MB21

Real change is hard. Not one single incumbent in the Senate elections this year from either party lost their election. Millions of people will try to start new habits in January only to revert back to their old ones. People sit in the same seats in restaurants, schools, churches, etc. We even tend to drive the same routes over and over, hesitating to try a better one. True change often takes a miraculous act of God.

What makes us think Pirate ownership/management will change their stripes? The cynical side of me simply wonders which of these “high end” prospects will really be a key cog on another team’s world championship team while the Pirates continue the same old cheap “farm club for the other teams” reputation.

PiratePrimate

True Change is here! It just takes its own time. But I have to believe Nickles will be an after thought and a bad memory soon enough. Karma has a way of taking care of people like that. And laughing fate has willed that 5,000+ boomers will be DFA’d daily while Gen Z’ers register to vote in numbers that will certainly guarantee change. I don’t know what kind but it’s coming. ‘The future’s uncertain and the end is always near.’

Anthony

The Fourth Turning, but I don’t see how this has anything to do with baseball unless there is a societal shift away from supporting all big business.

Last edited 1 month ago by Anthony
roberto

Just remember that optimists are happier, even though we’re usually wrong.

steve_zielinski

One constraint the Pirates face is the many players and pitchers who are legitimate prospects. Cherrington would not want to block any of them by signing a FA or making a trade for an upgrade. The time to do that begins next off season once the Pirates promote their prospects.

Anthony

There is absolutely nothing wrong with having too many good players. This just gives you options, and if managed correctly, it can also give you great trade capital.

NMR

Seems worth remembering the club’s best player entered his rookie season at least three players down on the depth chart and it didn’t have any impact whatsoever.

Wilbur Miller

Cherington won’t hesitate to block prospects. He’s been telling everyone things will improve once the “Altoona crowd” arrives. If they arrive and things don’t improve, for the very first time he could be facing (gasp!!) ACCOUNTABILITY!!! He’d be happy to delay that brush with reality.

TNBucs

I like Cherington fine but I worry that he doesn’t have anyone to hold him accountable. Nutting only cares about his bottom line, and Williams was hired only to pad that bottom line and he can do that without the team winning. So how will Cherington ever be held accountable? Can anyone imagine Williams doing that? And for Nutting to get involved probably requires a combination of an Archer-type trade and the Vasquez situation. It’s not going to happen. So I hope Ben does well because there’s nobody above him who has the knowledge or concern to make a change.

PirateRican21

But Steve, trades are always possible. Wouldn’t you rather have 7 good to great starters and be force to trade, than hoping that the prospects all work out?

leefieux

True. Velasquez won’t be blocking anybody.

Wilbur Miller

Sadly, yeah, he will.

roberto

Whom will he block?

Wilbur Miller

They have about a dozen relievers who are at least worth a shot, none of which is Velasquez himself. (Really, check his Statcast data over the years. He’s a BP pitcher.). So whoever isn’t on the team.
If he’s in the rotation, that’s just a farce. I’m not a Wilson or Thompson fan, but I’d rather have them, to say nothing of Ortiz or Oviedo.

PiratePrimate

But a very, very good BP pitcher. He can really hit those bats.

john_fluharty

And the few of our own we’ve tried out have not been given a very long try.

leefieux

I’m sure some ready for the majors pitcher. Bet on it!

PirateRican21

This owner is hard to like, the Santana signing, in my opinion , not a great one still made most of the fan base excited. Imagine if the team actually made a significant signing, I’m not saying the multimillion multi year signings that is in the long run a bad deal, but the 3-5 years with an AV of $10 to 15 million to actually fix a hole on the roster. I told myself that this year I won’t be disappointed with this organization, to accept it for what it is, but it’s so darn hard.

leefieux

‘This owner is hard to like,’

Are you just now realizing that? 😂😂😂

Last edited 1 month ago by leefieux
john_fluharty

He may have just won the understatement of the Year award.

PirateRican21

mpg43952

Hated by the entire citizenry is more like it.

PirateRican21

I’m a little slow, ok maybe more than a little.

john_fluharty

I’ll just assume you are super polite

leefieux

Join the crowd.

JimEastTennessee

Much as I dislike BN’s Scrooge-istic ways, he is under no obligation to spend HIS money the way WE would like him too…That said, I wish he would sell this cash cow to someone that did not use it as his “personal business dealings” Golden Goose.

Anthony

These investments are far from cash cows, especially when you consider the relationship between value and income. It’s the reversion or sale that will yield him, and his partners, a solid return on/of his investment.

PiratePrimate

That you call it ‘his money’ reflects an attitude that there is no social debt when his ownership is provided a monopolistic hold on a public stadium built with taxpayer funds in which he makes ‘his money.’

Anthony

Total cost to construct PNC was $216M; Pirates put up $76.5M and make $25M payments every ten years. At this point, they’ve paid $126.5M.

PiratePrimate

If you have a business valued at over $1 billion dollars and you’re more interested in using it as a cash cow than you are in running it as a successful sports franchise, you’re a POS. If you’re unwilling to spend $30-40 million a year above revenue when the franchise is worth over $1 billion dollars, you’re a POS. If all you’re interested in is milking a product of cash while it flounders in mediocrity, you’re a POS. I’m sorry, it’s beyond embarrassing.

Anthony

What LOL!. This narrative is completely void of reality.

Value does not include debt, and this business is the furthest thing from a “cash cow”. You’ll are using this word incorrectly. This business produces virtually no cash flow relative to revenues, and the only real return is received at reversion.

Last edited 1 month ago by Anthony
PiratePrimate

Void of reality is suggesting that the Pirates are a loss leader and the only value of the franchise is when its sold.

JimEastTennessee

I agree that he has a social, if not even a moral responsibility…but those dogs don’t hunt in the legal system within which he operates.

1979andCounting

The only hope is his 3 daughters find new interests. That might pry this open for a sale.

leefieux

I’ll be dead by then.

b mcferren

Reynolds going to Texas for Leiter and Rocker?

JimEastTennessee

Interesting idea/thought, but not enough.

PirateRican21

Hard pass on both!

2A2F6DE8-752A-412A-94ED-20A7A0E8C2F9.jpeg
joebaseball

NOPE!!

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